| 09:47pm, 29th Feb 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
mamatedave
[Profile - Diary]
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Seems the Turks have learned a lesson from Christians and see the need to modernise and reform Islam for the 21st century.
good idea/bad idea? Will it catch on?
Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.
The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.
The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.
As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.
This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation. Not exactly the same, but... it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion
Fadi Hakura,
Turkey expert, Chatham House
Islam series: Modern roles
But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.
It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.
'Reformation'
Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.
Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.
Some messages ban women from travelling without their husband's permission... But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone
Prof Mehmet Gormez,
Hadith expert,
Department of Religious Affairs
Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.
The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.
An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.
"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.
"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."
HAVE YOUR SAY
Many Hadiths relate to life in the Middle East 1,400 years ago and are no longer relevant
Brian, London
Send us your comments
The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.
Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.
Revolutionary
Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.
An Iranian woman walks past a large Koran
Women are re-examining their portrayal in the scriptures
But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.
Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.
"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.
"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."
The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.
Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".
So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.
Original spirit
Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.
There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment... This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them
Hulya Koc, a "vaize"
As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".
They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.
One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.
She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.
"There are honour killings," she explains.
"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.
"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."
'New Islam'
According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.
He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.
"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says.
"Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. "
Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam.
Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."
Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.
They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.
"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.
"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.
"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm |
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| 04:37pm, 1st Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
balance_singh
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37187
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its no coincidence that 1400 years after its creation xtianity was forced to reform after a bloody period in its history.
Now 1400 years after its creation Islam faces a similar crisis - the question is will muslims have the foresight to see they must adapt or refuse to and otherwise face an uncertain future.
Anyway this is not something new - the washinton post reported this 2 years ago. And anyway I dont think any sane muslim would say the quotes below are acceptable in any civil society.
Turkey aims to bridge the gap between faith and modernity by removing misogynistic statements from Muslim literature
By Mustafa Akyol
Washington Post
Istanbul (Jul 22, 2006)
"Women are imperfect in intellect and religion."
"The best of women are those who are like sheep."
"If a woman doesn't satisfy her husband's desires, she should choose herself a place in hell."
"If a husband's body is covered with pus and his wife licks it clean, she still wouldn't have paid her dues."
"Your prayer will be invalid if a donkey, black dog or a woman passes in front of you."
In a bold but little-noticed step toward reforming Islamic tradition, Turkey's religious authorities recently declared that they will remove these statements, and more like them, from the hadiths -- the non-Koranic commentary on the words and deeds of the prophet Muhammad.
Hadiths are serious stuff. More than 90 per cent of the sharia (Islamic law) is based on them rather than the Koran, and the most infamous measures of the sharia -- the killing of apostates, the seclusion of women, the ban on fine arts, the stoning of adulterers and many other violent punishments for sinful behaviour -- come from the hadiths and the commentaries built upon them.
Eliminating these misogynistic statements from the hadiths is a direct challenge to some of the most controversial aspects of Islamic tradition.
Modern Muslim intellectuals have long argued that the hadiths should be revised, but this is the first time in recent history that a central Islamic authority has taken the dramatic step of deciding to edit them.
The media and intellectuals of Ankara and Istanbul largely welcomed last month's decision, which the Turkish government supported.
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| 10:52pm, 1st Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37192
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This is nothing new at all.
The only difference is, Turkey aims to nationalise it, that's all and implement it as a form of policy within Turkey.
At the moment there are some leading Fatwa councils in Europe and also within the States that are re-addressing the hadiths.
In fact many ultra orthodox Muslim countries are doing this aswell, albeit not on a large scale. Saudi Arabia, despite having it's ultra conservative views has researched the issue on Post-Mortems and Organ donation. The Quran highlights the importance of the dead and the care and attention that is needed for dead bodies, so from that point of view many scholars have typically viewed organ donation from the dead as being a no no.
But because of the increased need of donors now for numerous ailments, the scholars have researched the issue further and found that to achieve a greater good to save lives, organ donation is seen as permissible along with post mortems for Murder cases, as the greater good is to obtain justice.
So reforms like these are always analysed by each state, same with Pakistan and their hudood laws, solely because new age issues are arising which gives the need for scriptures to be re-analysed and re-applied to the changing situation of need.
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| 07:28pm, 3rd Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37196
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And anyway I dont think any sane muslim would say the quotes below are acceptable in any civil society.
Aye, I agree. Besides, addressing the issue at a global scale would never work, simply because a Paki somewhere will go and burn a Mosque in vile protest to stop even a word from being altered in the Hadith.
Anybody who has read the Quran - and understood it, can tell you that you can automatically tell a non-authentic hadith from an authentic hadith. Its clear as day in most cases. I don't see the pros in making this a global issue.
The issue here is extremism arising from the interpretation of hadith - and the obvious lack of education in Islamic studies. You have to understand that most Muslims are born into the religion - most without making an effort to understand it completely.
Having said ALL that - I'd definitely say there are certain hadiths that need to be addressed. But then again, the use of black magic is strictly prohibited in Islam - but yet SO many Muslims still do it. Will changing the hadith change the minds of uneducated people? I think not.
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| 07:29am, 4th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
tera_abba
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37197
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surprise surprise, hadith are taken out of context yet again.
This subject is SO over done on this board and BORING!!!
Just name it the anti-islam board and get it over with.
And yes all u regular freaks come and attack me..that isnt predictable.
BLA BLA BLA
=)
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| 09:54pm, 4th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
k4sh
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37199
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hadeeths which are illogical and detrimental to society today do need to be looked at so long as we arent contradicting what is written in the Koran.
For example, there are Hadeeths which state we should stone adulterers yet there is NOTHING about this in the Koran.
Something needs to be done although I have my doubts the Turks method will work. |
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| 12:10pm, 5th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
dr_Az
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37202
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i dunno it could be a good or bad thing
problem is study of hadith is a complicated
science that not many people are fully
skilled to handle matters to this level.
scholars in turkey if they can pull it off it
would be great but it aint gonna be easy
and is gonna lead to some heavy criticizm
from the muslim world.
on the idea of globalizing it...it could
happen probably just before the all the
muslim countries int he world unite under
one land and one ruler and one sect.....so
basically never.... people still arguing in
the sunni world which madhb if any is
correct they are not gonna sit down and
unnanimously agree which hadith should
be or shoudnt be removed |
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| 05:52pm, 8th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
platinum786
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37210
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"Women are imperfect in intellect and religion."
"The best of women are those who are like sheep."
"If a woman doesn't satisfy her husband's desires, she should choose herself a place in hell."
"If a husband's body is covered with pus and his wife licks it clean, she still wouldn't have paid her dues."
"Your prayer will be invalid if a donkey, black dog or a woman passes in front of you."
Can you provide me with a link, as I've never heard such rubbish in my life before. |
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| 09:23am, 10th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
pumpernikel
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37221
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3437878.ece
there is a segment of explanation here . |
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| 10:51am, 10th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37222
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"The best of women are those who are like sheep."
- is near enough perfect. The only amendment should be “They should be seen and NOT heard. The worst of women should be keep under lock and key”
"If a woman doesn't satisfy her husband's desires, she should choose herself a place in hell."
Should be amended to - "If a woman doesn't satisfy her husband's desires, she should provide alcohol , the xbox360, the sky remote and a pizza”
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| 02:33pm, 16th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
firestar
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37238
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"Women are imperfect in intellect and religion."
"The best of women are those who are like sheep."
"If a woman doesn't satisfy her husband's desires, she should choose herself a place in hell."
"If a husband's body is covered with pus and his wife licks it clean, she still wouldn't have paid her dues."
"Your prayer will be invalid if a donkey, black dog or a woman passes in front of you."
what sort of fucking shit is that? stop spreading bullshit propaganda around the dam place. |
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| 11:12am, 17th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37241
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^^^
These verses are in some suspect hadiths. Apparently the “pus” verse was confirmed by al albani in sahih al jami and reiterated, hence supported, in sahih al targhib wal tarhib. Believing in the whole verse or just part of it depends on your motive/intention.
Its not the polytheists, Christian missionaries, the Zionists, the Jews or kafirs who have spreading this “bullshit propaganda”. Its islamic scholars. And its other islamic scholars who have brought them to the public eye, and said that these verses are ridiculous and should be removed.
Some “scholars” actually believe and promote the whole verses, eg. Saudi “expert” on family affairs Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari. Again, that’s probably due to motive and intention because in all seriousness, it does sound unbelievable.
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| 04:03pm, 17th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37247
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Its not the polytheists, Christian missionaries, the Zionists, the Jews or kafirs who have spreading this “bullshit propaganda”. Its islamic scholars.
Sad, isn't it?
ps: you people should watch "Khuda Keh Liye" - Or at least the last 30 minutes of it. Superb film. |
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| 04:16pm, 17th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37248
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^The version I watched must have had some bits missing, that or there are some cratars for plot holes in the film.
I still don't see the point of having Naseerudin Shah in the film for like 3 minutes, and all he does in the film is shrug his shoulders. |
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| 04:19pm, 17th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37249
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wtf. What Naseeruddin said was right on the money. You know that, and so do I.
He blew the whole debate right out of the water!
(He probably didn't play a bigger role because the paki's couldn't afford him).
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| 09:27pm, 17th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37252
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yeah, but 3 mins???
come on!!! |
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| 11:28pm, 17th Mar 2008 |
The beginning of the Islamic Reformation? |
FAG
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37253
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ5Sq0NWVOA
good film, good film! |
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