| 09:11am, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36969
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Vote BNP?
Think the joke's on you.
Atleast we know which side of the political line you seem to be on.  |
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| 09:30am, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36970
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we are humans!
meaning muslims arn't? |
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| 11:58am, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
jake_the_muss
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36971
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How do other countries cope with having two separate laws?
I not for it, it will only cause more probelms to our existing laws. Not only that you'll have every other tom dick and harry wanting to have their law implemented into british law. |
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| 12:17pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36972
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JTM
What makes the whole situation hilarious is that it has been widely exaggerated and people are fearing things that have already happened in this country.
Look at the case for marriage in this country. By law people who have a church marriage are already considered married under the state, for any non Christian marriages they would have to go through a marriage registration service. Now (as far as I'm aware) a minister can approve the marriage and that can be made applicable under the UK system. I fail to see how that can affect the wider population?
Yet there is no provision for divorce. The cases that the Arch Bishop has raised have been civil matters. Criminal matters will and should be dealt with by the British legal system, but civil issues like marriage, divorce, inheritance etc..should be made optionable with the UK legal system being used as a default.
I fail to see how if 2 individuals wanted a divorce in line to their belief systems has an affect on the wider population. Criminal law, obviously would, but the Arch Bishop didn't state that. |
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| 12:21pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36973
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the law of this country is sovereign, if u don't like it, u r free to leave, it is really that simple.
basic, i would not vote for bnp, but this sharia is extreme as the bnp, my joke is that they are two similar methods of law.
reelist, again i was joking, but i didnt joke about the human bit, of course muslims r human, they r human before they r muslim.
also, civil matters must also be judged by british law, without a doubt. i.e.- a divorce should go through the current procedure, NOT BY THE MAN SAYING TALAQ TALAQ TALAQ 3 TIMES.
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| 12:27pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36974
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The law of this country is sovereign but it is also continuously under reform. Hence why I gave the example about marriage.
Under what basis is the Shariah system in comparison to the BNP, as usual you're making sweeping statements about an issue you know pretty much F all about.
The funny thing is, your militant atheism seems to be stirred towards Muslims yet you're not challenging the concept that the laws of this country to some degree have a theocratic influence.
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| 12:30pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36975
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lets look at exactly what sharia is first...just a few points-
Requirements for Islamic Marriages:
The woman can only marry a Muslim man.
A woman who wishes to be divorced usually needs the consent of her husband. However, most schools allow her to obtain a divorce without her husband's consent if she can show the judge that her husband is impotent. If the husband consents she does not have to pay back the dower.[
These are guidelines; Islamic law on divorce is different depending on the school of thought
If a man divorces his wife three times, he can no longer marry her again unless she marries another man and then divorces him
Men have the right of unilateral divorce. A divorce is effective when the man tells his wife that he is divorcing her. At this point the husband must pay the wife the "delayed" component of the dower.
...just a few points on marriage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Marriage_and_divorce
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| 12:34pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36976
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so wiki is your source?
Secondly, answer me, how that would impact on UK residents?
It's a matter between a consenting couple on deciding to go through a divorce under Islamic tradition, how would that have an influence on you or any other British citizen?
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| 12:34pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36977
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Sunni Islamic law allows husbands to divorce their wives if there is a justifiable reason, by clearly saying talaq ("I divorce you") three times. A divorced couple cannot remarry if they have been divorced three times, unless the woman has married and divorced another man in the interim. In 2003 a Malaysian court ruled that, under Sharia law, a man may divorce his wife via text messaging as long as the message was clear and unequivocal. [5] Such a divorce, known as the "triple talaq" is not allowed in most Muslim states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Marriage_and_divorce
MY QUESTION IS, HOW IS THE TREATMENT OF NON-MUSLIMS IN ISLAMIC STATES???? WOULD THE ISLAMIC STATES COMPRIMISE FOR A 4% MINORITY AND ADOPT BITS OF CHRISTIAN, HINDU, SIKH, JAIN, BUDDIST, OR EVEN ATHEIST LAW???? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM |
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| 12:38pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36978
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We're not talking about what other states would do, we're talking primarily within the UK.
That's a separate debate.
It's like saying, why the heck should the UK donate to the poor when France and Germany don't do enough, surely a state which demonstrates greater tolerance would be commended as an example of best practice. |
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| 12:38pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36979
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so wiki is your source?
wots wrong with that? shal i look for further sources? just a note, trying to attack my source won't help, because it is credible and if needed i can hint for further sources. im sure you'll agree. :-)
Secondly, answer me, how that would impact on UK residents?
...british culture, and the law, how many other religious minorities will it cater for? why should it change for anyone? it is secular.
It's a matter between a consenting couple on deciding to go through a divorce under Islamic tradition, how would that have an influence on you or any other British citizen?
its a direct breach of human rights if you ask me, women not being able to marry non-muslims etc.
...shall we go further? |
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| 12:41pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36980
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We're not talking about what other states would do, we're talking primarily within the UK.
That's a separate debate.
It's like saying, why the heck should the UK donate to the poor when France and Germany don't do enough, surely a state which demonstrates greater tolerance would be commended as an example of best practice.
...trying to divert the attention? tolerance has limits, soon people will say women should be covered up in public, should the british govt say we should make everyone do this?
minorities are persecuted in islamic states, lets sort them out first before we concentrate on the uk.
leave my country alone. |
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| 12:42pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36981
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Wiki is not an academic source mate, it's clearly open to bias. Just because you can google it easily, doesn't make it any more reliable.
Secondly, why would assume that Muslim women won't be able to marry their partners choosing?? Really?
How did you come to that conclusion then?
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| 12:45pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36983
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lol @ 'leave my country alone'
auw please don't cry |
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| 01:13pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36988
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minorities are persecuted in islamic states, lets sort them out first before we concentrate on the uk.
i have a funny feeling you wouldn't take that attitude when discussing islamic extremism in the UK.
basic, if there were two methods of divorce, for example. the current UK method and that according to sharia law, whats to say one of the parties involved in a divorce would want a divorce in accordance with UK law, and another with sharia, what then?
surely to each partner, one method would be favourable than the other.
and what if a non-muslim wanted a divorce in accordance to sharia law? if the talaq thing is true, its pretty easy to divorce, im sure you'll find a lot of non-muslims interested there looking for a quickie divorce...
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| 01:53pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
kaalia_81
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36989
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people with even a faint fondness for living by a 'form' of sharia law should find that islamic state where it is more receptive and representative of the people of that land.
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| 03:00pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36991
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Basic, do you think that Archbishop Gandalf’s comments is coming from somewhere genuine or is it a thinly veiled attempt at scapegoating (sp!), as you mentioned in another thread?
Judging by today’s newspapers, news channels, and the opinions of all three of the main parties, it would appear that his comments have just threw more fuel on the burning embers of the anti-islamic feeling that is in the air in the uk. And as Baroness Warsi (she of the mohammad the teddy bear fame) pointed out, rather “maintain social cohesion”, it will bring even more division. Dr. Azzam Tamimi, on channel 4 news last night said, the MCB wants sharia law for not just marriage and divorce but also heritance tax and divisions. Slowly it turns into a one law of them, one law for us mentality.
Another point – is it really needed? Whats wrong with getting a divorce through the courts and which is recognised by the law of the land, and getting a “religious” divorce which is recognised by whatever religious group you belong to? People do that when it comes to marriage already.
Another thing I found funny, reading this and other forums is that the people who want sharia law in Britain don’t seem to be religious whatsoever. They bang on about its their right blah blah blah, whilst on other threads, they are talking about doing illegal downloads (stealing), free mixing, drinking, drugs, sex etc.
militant_atheist - “minorities are persecuted in islamic states”
Interesting program on tonight on channel 4 @ 7.30pm - Unreported World – Egypt’s Rubbish People – the treatment of Christians in Egypt.
Watch it and then have something else to post about other than polygamy marriages in islam.
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| 03:21pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36992
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'basic, if there were two methods of divorce, for example. the current UK method and that according to sharia law, whats to say one of the parties involved in a divorce would want a divorce in accordance with UK law, and another with sharia, what then?'
Then it should be mandatory for it to be under UK law by default. As the UK is the host nation. You can have a Muslim couple who wish to be divorced under UK law, nothing wrong with that, but if it causes a dispute then it should be under UK law, how it's always been. The option should really come up if both parties agree on an Islamic divorce.
Logic states that if Islamic marriages are allowed in the UK, there should be a provision for divorce.
As for if non Muslims prefer the Shariah based law, why would they choose it if the law doesn't apply to them?
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| 03:36pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36993
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'people with even a faint fondness for living by a 'form' of sharia law should find that islamic state where it is more receptive and representative of the people of that land.'
That just goes to show how much you know about what Shariah is.
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| 03:47pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36994
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Candide
Irrespective of if his statements were genuine or not, he raised an issue that people have preconceived and incorrect ideas of Shariah law, and the irony was, that people still had those preconceived ideas and so much so that people have them on this site.
Instead of people querying what it is, people just assume it to be a form of capital non compromising punishments when the system is a lot lot more than that.
How many of these people who have these preconceived ideas have asked Muslims in the west what it is?
I'm not a Shariah expert at all, far from it, but what I do know is that the Shariah is part and parcel of Islamic life, to how people conduct matters in business transactions to how people are expected to give to charity. People operate on that system in the UK now, but because the term Shariah isn't used, people don't panic.
If all of a sudden I declared that it is part of Shariah to give a percentage of my savings to charity, people will be up in arms about it just because I uttered the word Shariah, forget the charity bit.
People are likely to put 2 and 2 together and think 'oh his charity money must be to finance a new blade so that executioners can be-head criminals easily'.
The point is, the very essence of the word Shariah scares people despite knowing what it means and what it stands for. |
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| 04:16pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
capsette
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36996
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Divorces mutually settled according to shariah are already legal in this country.
Most of the idiots calling for shariah and most of the idiots calling against haven't got a clue what they're on about. |
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| 04:24pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36997
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“he raised an issue that people have preconceived and incorrect ideas of Shariah law”
“How many of these people who have these preconceived ideas have asked Muslims in the west what it is?”
It is understandable people have preconceived and incorrect ideas of sharia law, or jewish law, or christian law, or hindu or buddhist law or whatever law that they do not belong to. Bloody hell, the majority of people don’t even know their own religious laws fully, so to finger point people outside their faith is a tad silly.
“but what I do know is that the Shariah is part and parcel of Islamic life”
Doesn’t sharia law vary with whichever Islamic sect you belong to and Islamic state/country?
“to how people conduct matters in business transactions to how people are expected to give to charity. People operate on that system in the UK now, but because the term Shariah isn't used, people don't panic.”
If people already operate on that system , and are still within the framework of british law, why the need to change?
Anyway, I didn’t ask that. I asked, given the climate today and the pseudo islamaphobia that apparently exists, isn’t Archbishop Gandalf’s comment going to cause more divisions rather than “maintain social cohesion” as he puts it? Another point, the MCB as, Azzam Tamimi pointed out, want sharia law not only in matters of marriage and divorce but also heritance tax.
“As for if non Muslims prefer the Shariah based law, why would they choose it if the law doesn't apply to them?”
If another religious group was getting a better heritance tax deal (as Tamimi wants) than me, I would want the same.
“The point is, the very essence of the word Shariah scares people despite knowing what it means and what it stands for.”
That really isn’t the fault of non-moslems, but rather the actions of Islamic countries/states and groups. They are the ones who have corrupted and debased sharia law to the extent that non-islamic people, as you put it, panic.
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| 08:24pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Omz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36998
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Firstly there was no need for the Archbishop to come out with this statement. I don't think any1 had been complaining - so what prompted him?
Islam teaches Muslims to respect the law of the land they live in... Having said that, I don't think anyone is calling for criminal law to be imposed according to Shariah. |
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| 11:36pm, 8th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37000
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'It is understandable people have preconceived and incorrect ideas of sharia law, or jewish law, or christian law, or hindu or buddhist law or whatever law that they do not belong to. Bloody hell, the majority of people don’t even know their own religious laws fully, so to finger point people outside their faith is a tad silly.'
I don't see any finger pointing.
'Doesn’t sharia law vary with whichever Islamic sect you belong to and Islamic state/country?'
There's a difference between what Shariah law should be, rather than what it is. The laws of Shariah in the UK should apply to practicality based on living within te UK, irrespective of school of thought. You don't see the Islamic mortgage people having sectarian versions of mortgage provision.
'If people already operate on that system , and are still within the framework of british law, why the need to change?'
Certain systems are in operation because they are private or confined within the Muslim community hence there is no legal say on the matter. For example it's a Shariah rule for Muslims to pray 5 times a day, but we're not expecting it to be law, because that is a personal issue between one man or woman and God. The issue of divorce, marriage, inheritance impact on more than the individual and God but concerned people (such as siblings, offspring, marital partners etc...) so with such instances witnesses and procedure is needed, but having said that it will only affect the people concerned.
"If another religious group was getting a better heritance tax deal (as Tamimi wants) than me, I would want the same"
It all pretty much works out the same, guaranteed, if there were any loops holes, they would quickly be covered. It wouldn't surprise me if there were higher charges for organising an Islamic inheritance. Quite similar to the concept of Islamic mortgages, but I'm not big on inheritance stuff so I can't really comment on that.
"That really isn’t the fault of non-moslems, but rather the actions of Islamic countries/states and groups. They are the ones who have corrupted and debased sharia law to the extent that non-islamic people, as you put it, panic."
That really isn't the fault of everyday Muslims in the UK either. What happens in Sudan, Saudi, Iran shouldn't reflect on what happens for Muslims in the UK.
However, it is the fault of the scaremongering Muslims who love the media spotlight like Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri and their crew, who have brandished a declaration of how the UK would come under a full system of Shariah law, many people have been sucked in by that and actually believe it, which gives the likes of the BNP ammunition who further create scaremongering tactics but from the other side of the political spectrum.
Hence why there should be more discussion and understanding and the mere fact that Shariah has been prevalent in the UK since the 1800s so if people don't know it existed then how would it impact on them if tese same laws became officialised?
I as a Muslim don't expect a Saudi type Shariah system, Iranian, or whatever in the UK. On the other hand there should be some official authority available for provisions like inheritance, burying the dead, marriage etc...some of the above have been done, so why not officialise the other areas?
If there is a better reason than:
'No! If you don't like it F off to a Muslim country'
I'd like to hear it.
Britains my home, and will probably remain that way for my life time. I contrbute with taxes, I participate in voting, I'm still a British Citizen, so would it be unreasonable for the people who contribute to this country to request for some minor changes that will impact very little on the wider population? If not at all. |
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| 01:12am, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37001
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If there is a better reason than:
'No! If you don't like it F off to a Muslim country'
I'd like to hear it.
The one that comes immediately to mind is that Muslims would further segregate themselves for the rest of us.
After nearly 50 years of civil disobedience and fighting for equal rights under a common law it beggars belief that people would wish to go back to equal but separate.
The jim crow laws were equal but separate. So was apartheid to those who introduced it. |
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| 11:22am, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37003
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Basic - I don’t have time to ridicule each of your points
“Britains my home, and will probably remain that way for my life time……blah blah”
I never said anywhere on this thread that you should leave this country. To be honest, I think this whole topic is really a non issue. Provisions already exist which accommodate a lot of people’s religious practices. The reason I posted on here was I think the archbishop’s comments were stupid, esp. during this climate of pseudo islampahobia. I think he was naive to come out with such comments and even more naive the next day to be shocked at the response he has got. He hasn’t done any favours for anyone – his community; the islamic community or other religious communities. He’s just caused more tension. The opposite of his “social cohesion” has occurred since his comments. The “them and us” mentality has reared its ugly head again. He’s also probably got the hindu council of Britain (if there is one)and the Jedi council to have an fit for not getting a mention.
Actually why did he single out sharia law? Do not the hindus, sikhs, jedis etc also have religious laws which they would want to be indoctrinated into british law?
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| 11:53am, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Omz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37004
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LOL the level of ignorance amongst the British society has well and truly come out from this issue, none more than from the responses being posted in this thread.
Let's just sum up a few points:
1) Firstly there wasn't any need for the Archbishop to come out with the statement he did. I'm not aware of any Muslims who had bought up the issue - so what prompted him?
2) The Archbishop's statement has been misinterpreted and the media have blown it out of proportion. He was talking about allowing Sharia laws to be used for marital and business matters. He wasn't talking about imposing Sharia law in criminal cases, so don't worry - nobody's gonna get their hands or head chopped off.
3) If you're not Muslim, IT WONT AFFECT YOU. If certain elements of Sharia law were introduced in Britain, they would only be applicable for Muslims who CHOOSE to impose them, i.e. it would be OPTIONAL.
4) JEWS and QUAKERS already have rights for their own religious laws to be used for similar matters - why the big fuss about this then?
5) Finally to re-iterate the most important point, NOBODY IS SUGGESTING TO CHANGE THE LAW AND INSTEAD ADAPT SHARIA LAW IN THE UK.
The Prime Minister's reaction was that "Sharia law cannot be used as a justification for committing breaches of English law".
Again, nobody's suggesting that either. |
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| 12:59pm, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37005
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4) JEWS and QUAKERS already have rights for their own religious laws to be used for similar matters - why the big fuss about this then?
Yes in 1753.
There was once a law saying you could kill a welshman in Chester with a bow and arrow. Should we reprise that law too ? |
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| 06:12pm, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Omz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37006
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inders I believe those rights that Jews and Quakers have still exist today |
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| 08:07pm, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
capsette
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37007
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Muslims have the same rights as jews. If you want to set up a shariah 'court' in the framework of civil society you're more than free to do so. |
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| 08:11pm, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Omz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37008
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Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries.
British Jews, particularly the orthodox, will frequently turn to their own religious courts, the Beth Din, to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm
^ That's ALL that this is about - so why the uproar? |
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| 10:22pm, 9th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37009
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Oh you mean courts where you can go and they give you advice and its non-binding and people can just walk out and not accept any ruling made.
In my world I call that the parents. |
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| 02:05am, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
capsette
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37010
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That's ALL that this is about - so why the uproar?
I unsure what your point is. To reiterate; you're free to do that right now. |
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| 09:12am, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37011
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"Logic states that if Islamic marriages are allowed in the UK, there should be a provision for divorce"
...isn't divorced confirmed by the male saying "talaq" 3 times? sounds stupid to me..civil or criminal matters should be settled by the british courts. the british law is sovereign, any reason not to like it, then leave??? simple.
british law is probably the envy of the world. people crying "western ideology, laws, culture, media is no good"- why don't they leave???? this is how we live, how we are, if you don't like it, book your self a one way ticket to saudi arabia and live your sharia.
NO SHARIA IN THIS COUNTRY!!
giving into any part of sharia now will lead to this country being doomed. why should we?
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| 09:57am, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37012
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DOOOOOOOOOOOM!
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!  |
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| 10:49am, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37013
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| 11:00am, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37014
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"2) The Archbishop's statement has been misinterpreted and the media have blown it out of proportion. He was talking about allowing Sharia laws to be used for marital and business matters. He wasn't talking about imposing Sharia law in criminal cases, so don't worry - nobody's gonna get their hands or head chopped off."
"3) If you're not Muslim, IT WONT AFFECT YOU. If certain elements of Sharia law were introduced in Britain, they would only be applicable for Muslims who CHOOSE to impose them, i.e. it would be OPTIONAL."
Doesn’t this already happen, as pointed out in the Dispatches - Divorce Sharia Style programme the other week? People who want to take the religious route along with the civil route, already go and consult their local sharia court and get fatwas and advice from the court.
"1) Firstly there wasn't any need for the Archbishop to come out with the statement he did. I'm not aware of any Muslims who had bought up the issue - so what prompted him?"
I agree with your first sentence, no need for the archbishop’s comments. Regarding the second - Islamic groups including the MCB have brought up the issue of sharia law in Britain in the past as again highlighted in the Dispatches programme, where the sheikhs talked about wanting shaira law in Britain. One even claimed that it will reduce the numbers in prison (LOL!!). Also (shown in the programme) when during an Islamic convention, Lord Falconer was introduced to a sheikh who wanted to talk to him about sharia law in Britain, Lord Falconer did a runner. The sheikh then said to the camera that every year his council invites him and the government for talks about sharia law in Britain, but they never accept the invitation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhjo31WCNKI&feature=related
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| 04:29pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
humera
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37015
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it would be too problematic to try and
implement shariah even if only in civil
mattters anyway.
There are many different schools of
islamic law which conflict
and the substantive rules that make up
the shariah itself do not reflect social
reality, they are still very closely
connected to the historical/social/political
context in which they were made
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| 05:02pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Omz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37016
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"british law is probably the envy of the world"
U talkin abt the same bakwaas "british" law which gives pathetic 2 year sentences for rapists, murderers, paedophiles, who get released and then re-offend? |
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| 05:08pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37017
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Omz maybe he's comparing to some countries that kill people for not doing very much wrong at all. |
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| 05:16pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Omz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37018
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U mean like America? |
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| 06:11pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37019
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Yes along with China and most other countries that have capital punishment. |
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| 07:05pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
capsette
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37020
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U talkin abt the same bakwaas "british" law which gives pathetic 2 year sentences for rapists, murderers, paedophiles, who get released and then re-offend?
I'd appreciate a link. |
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| 11:17pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
platinum786
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37021
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All I have to say is, this is the opinion of one of the few men in britian considered to be a great thinker.
All this has been aid without muslims lifting a pathetic finger and putting any efforts into ourselves or our commmunities. thats all about to change. The current generation is striving towards getting educated, is striving towards inter islamic unity and striving towards political influence.
Let us continue getting richer, getting more involved in politics, getting more educated and getting better known as leaders, and watch in 20 years time, if we say we want Sharia, no man will stop us getting Sharia.
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| 11:18pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
platinum786
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37022
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That is the truth that scares everyone. |
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| 11:21pm, 10th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
mamatedave
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37023
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this is the opinion of one of the few men in britian considered to be a great thinker.
are you seriously suggesting there are only a 'few' great thinkers in this country - lmao!!!!
So whats you definition of a 'great tinker'? |
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| 08:57am, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
capsette
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37024
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and watch in 20 years time, if we say we want Sharia, no man will stop us getting Sharia.
Out of sheer curiosity how old are you?
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| 11:16am, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37025
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"and watch in 20 years time, if we say we want Sharia, no man will stop us getting Sharia"
i look any k*nt asking for sharia crap, and send them packing on a plane which caters for it.
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| 11:17am, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37026
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not look- i mean stop! woops |
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| 12:43pm, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37027
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LOL @ thread |
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| 12:53pm, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Nakh_Teh_Makhi
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37028
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Everyone in the u.k will be following Sharia law one day...  |
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| 01:27pm, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37029
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haha.
plat, you're hilarious dude. you sound like pinky...
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| 01:27pm, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37030
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doh.
i mean, the brain.
:( |
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| 04:53pm, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
nubbin
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37031
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and watch in 20 years time, if we say we want Sharia, no man will stop us getting Sharia.
What about women? Are they allowed to stop you? |
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| 05:19pm, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Smooth_stallion
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37032
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a proper interpretation needs to be identified of sharia law
i dont wana see it in england tbh. too much controversy and the strong ethnic areas of bradford and luton could make up their own set of laws and punishments regarding interpretation of sharia law (aka old mans law).
in one way the effect of shara law could be natrualisiation; making parts of ingerland home more like back yard home. bad. very bad.
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| 06:39pm, 11th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
rikshawalla
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37033
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What about women? Are they allowed to stop you?
NO!!
Well under platinum's way you guys shouldn't even be allowed out the house (well unless you're accompanied by your husband or father) |
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| 08:37am, 12th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37034
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...women are half what men are, how dare they even attempt to stop the glorious sharia!! |
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| 05:25pm, 12th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37035
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God, some of the posts in this thread are so retarded I can't believe you people exist. :\
Sharia law has guidelines of when, where, and how it can be implemented. Trust me, it cannot be implemented here in the UK at all.
Someone's gone and stirred the pot again haven't they? And I find it hilarious that a inferior woman had to point out that Muslims themselves don't want Sharia law in this country.
lol @ inders - wickeeed picture u put up there. |
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| 01:31am, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
think_tank
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37036
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THIS IS NOT A DEBATE. NO SHARIA LAW, HINDU LAW, SIKH LAW OR ANY OTHER LAW.
DEMOCRACY MEANS "ONE RULE OF LAW FOR ALL" SOVEREIGN & GODLY.
DON'T GET TANGLED WITH RELIGION AND POLITICS ITS FAR TOO DANGEROUS.
nEXT THE HINDUS WILL BE DEMANDING THAT THE "LAWS OF MANU" BE IMPLEMENTED.
Basic - "Britains my home, and will probably remain that way for my life time. I contrbute with taxes, I participate in voting, I'm still a British Citizen, so would it be unreasonable for the people who contribute to this country to request for some minor changes that will impact very little on the wider population? If not at all."
No Basic, just because you contribute to a country in any form or other, it doesn't mean you can pick and choose what to abide by, which rule to follow etc.
No Islamic country will accommodate such laws for any non-muslims. And I don't think they should. If this is their law and you choose to live in that country then thats the law you will abide by.
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| 09:09am, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37038
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tankers you have completely overlooked what I've written.
I feel a bit like the good ol Doctor myself. |
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| 10:21am, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37039
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basic i reckon think tank has answered your point bang on. i appreciate you work, pay your taxes etc, but in return you get to enjoy the social and economical benefits of this country as they currently are.
in comparison to other countries, i think you've got a fair deal. if you was a non muslim in an islamic state, it wouldn't be so fair, or a muslim in another state (ie muslim kids in schools in france). do you feel you currently have a harsh deal within the uk?
i think you'll agree since sept 11th muslims have become distanced and highlighted more in british society, it would be the duty of both parties (muslims and non muslims alike) to cut down the distances- stating muslims need a seperate law (whatever you wish to call it- different rules for civil matters etc, the key word is 'different') is not going to help at all, what do you think? there has been be problem the way muslims have lived since the 1960's, why change it now? is it broken? if not, why fix it?
no other minorities are coming out saying they need different rules/laws for civil matters. maybe bending a few rules to appease muslims will start a trend which is not so healthy for the wider society.
and out of curiosity, please state which rules/laws are not compatible with muslims in general, i.e. what rules (as you state do not effect non-muslims) should be implemented for muslims? i still dont understand what these are. if they concern marriage, please specify which part- marriage/divorce?? what other civil matters? |
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| 05:33pm, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37061
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i appreciate you work, pay your taxes etc, but in return you get to enjoy the social and economical benefits of this country as they currently are.
Anything can ALWAYS be improved. For example, the US, its the Superpower of the world - but they've only been there a little over 100 years. Why didn't they just adopt to the Native American ways? The fact is, there'll always be economies, societies, etc. etc. that a country can learn from.
Look at India, they've adopted the Western ideas into their own society and now they're moving quickly into a large, successful economy.
So please, spare us from your nonsense arguments - you don't have a leg to stand on there.
it would be the duty of both parties (muslims and non muslims alike) to cut down the distances-
I agree. But berating them isn't going to help innit.
and out of curiosity, please state which rules/laws are not compatible with muslims in general, i.e. what rules (as you state do not effect non-muslims) should be implemented for muslims? i still dont understand what these are. if they concern marriage, please specify which part- marriage/divorce?? what other civil matters?
I don't know if you notice or not, you reek of marital injustice. WHY are you so obsessed with it?
And, read the Quran - stop asking people what it says - honestly its a matter of googling to find out exactly what the religion states on the matter. |
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| 05:36pm, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37062
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^ moi.
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| 09:49pm, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37065
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"if you was a non muslim in an islamic state, it wouldn't be so fair, or a muslim in another state (ie muslim kids in schools in france). do you feel you currently have a harsh deal within the uk?"
Assumptions once again. I know of many people who have lived or are living within the Middle East and are enjoying themselves there, all of which are non Muslim. We all have a harsh deal Militant_Atheist, just because I'm a British citizen, it doesn't mean that I don't have the right to question some aspects of the civil system. You question Shariah after all, despite knowing very little about it. However I know pretty much enough about British law (as a British citizen) to criticise elements of it which may be unreasonable. Many people criticise the laws within the UK, Muslim and non Muslim alike, common ground shared is that they are all British and their critique is introspective.
"and out of curiosity, please state which rules/laws are not compatible with muslims in general, i.e. what rules (as you state do not effect non-muslims) should be implemented for muslims? i still dont understand what these are. if they concern marriage, please specify which part- marriage/divorce?? what other civil matters?"
Well according to Capsette the divorce thing is already active in the UK. As I said before a Shariah based divorce should only come about in the UK if the former partners mutually agree to it. If one wants a shariah based divorce and the other a British based one, then by default it should be settled under the British system.
My other issue was with inheritance and having a civil system to allow for Shariah based inheritance.
Those are my main ones, the other elements of Shariah are practised in the UK anyway such as how Muslims should be with their neighbours, what sort of business transactions are lawful and unlawful according to Shariah etc...these are all matters of conscience rather than a governing issue.
As for the criminal side of things, I never did nor do I expect a parallel legal system to deal with criminals, the only legal system for that should be the law of the land and the vast majority of Muslims would expect that too.
Hence why my debate is more to do with people's misunderstanding of what Shariah is, rather than what Shariah laws should be allowed in the UK.
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| 10:31pm, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
think_tank
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37066
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Basic- I still do not endorse your ideology. Not because it is Shariah, but because common sense tells me that a nations judiciary is better served without religious and political interference.
You're never going to get a perfect system but at least everybody is in the same playing field and would be served in the same way.
Just imagin if the Laws of Manu were to be imposed on all Hindus, I doubt that many Hindus would come out in support. |
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| 11:39pm, 13th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37067
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"Basic- I still do not endorse your ideology. Not because it is Shariah, but because common sense tells me that a nations judiciary is better served without religious and political interference."
Common sense should also tell you that the whole concept of any law of civilisation is based around religious or political constructs.
People who are the same are treated the same way. Fortunately or not, society contains many different people. The UK more so due to it's multicultural element, based on that the rules surrounding education, employment, housing etc vary depending on the needs of a target population. These issues are prevalent within every progressive society. Yes it's hard work, but with so much going on, people can learn off each other rather than becoming polarised on one mindset which is to demonise a system of jurisprudence that people know very little of.
As for the laws of Manu, don't know about that to comment, hence why I made the above statement. |
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| 08:38pm, 14th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37079
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"Anything can ALWAYS be improved. For example, the US, its the Superpower of the world - but they've only been there a little over 100 years. Why didn't they just adopt to the Native American ways? The fact is, there'll always be economies, societies, etc. etc. that a country can learn from.
Look at India, they've adopted the Western ideas into their own society and now they're moving quickly into a large, successful economy.
So please, spare us from your nonsense arguments - you don't have a leg to stand on there."
i have two legs missy, because your point above is irrelevant. so according to YOUR opinion, you believe sharia would 'improve' british law? well sorry you're wrong, it wont.
india endorses western laws to move forward, whilst we endorse sharia law and take a step backwards? dont think so.
and i know ppl say there are different schools of sharia, but the most extreme is preety harsh as we know it, it would be a good idea to stay away from it in general.
today you ask for a bit of sharia 2mrw you'll ask for green lines on roads and for halal to be compulsory in kfc...hehe.
i reek of martial injustice? i take that as a compliment, why do you feel threatend when i keep highlighting it? something to hide? please share.
i shall certainly be googling the koran.
I SERIOUSLY CANT BELIEVE YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY SHARIA WITHIN BRITAIN WOULDNT BE SUCH A BAD IDEA.
in a generalisation view- the sharia i have heard is nothing but absurd. |
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| 11:07pm, 14th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37080
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so according to YOUR opinion, you believe sharia would 'improve' british law? well sorry you're wrong, it wont.
Where'd I say that fuckbrain? Are you retarded?
Read what my first post on this thread says:
05:25pm, 12th Feb 2008 Sharia comments trigger criticism
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37035
God, some of the posts in this thread are so retarded I can't believe you people exist. :\
Sharia law has guidelines of when, where, and how it can be implemented. Trust me, it cannot be implemented here in the UK at all.
Someone's gone and stirred the pot again haven't they? And I find it hilarious that a inferior woman had to point out that Muslims themselves don't want Sharia law in this country.
lol @ inders - wickeeed picture u put up there.
Honestly, if you wanna debate something - or be taken seriously, READ for a change rather than spew your own negativities and insecurities.
Zaleel. :\ |
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| 11:30pm, 14th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37081
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But don't you get it Ms Xtreme, Militant Atheist is right. Now we're asking for some discourse on Shariah Law, tomorrow it'll be compulsory to eat halal KFC, don't you see the link? Militant Atheist's analysis is spot on. The KFC will be introduced into schools and all the kids will get obese and thick and then what'll happen is that all the religious people will force their kids halal kfc and it will become the staple diet of the UK, then because of eating all that halal KFC, the UK population will become weak and then the Muslims will take advantage and then take over Britain when the nation is at it's most vulnerable.
In conclusion (according to Militant Atheist) Shariah Law will be implemented in the UK during the advent of compulsory halal KFC consumption...it's so clear now. |
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| 01:06am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
think_tank
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37082
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"Common sense should also tell you that the whole concept of any law of civilisation is based around religious or political constructs."
My point Basic...is political construction should be based on equality and human rights as different cultures, traditions and religious groups live together. To accomodate laws based on religion is discriminatory. The Shah Banu case in India is one such example of how religion and state laws can lead to conflicts and dissent. This is not to say there is no accomodation of religion in marriage and divorce it should be upto the individual whether to seek religious guidance in order to end such relationship so they have some kind of religious sanctions but the actual legal format should be the civil laws of the country.
"As for the laws of Manu, don't know about that to comment, hence why I made the above
statement."
As for the Laws of Manu, it is Manu who had initially introduced the "Varna" (caste) system, though his intention was not to divide people but was a state infrastructure for the functioning of states where four types of labour systems were needed. But, over time philosophies were re-intrepreted, and abused and have the modern version of the caste system.
Laws of Manu - also states that women were lower in intelligence which lead to all sorts abuse on women. and I can go on but my son need the computer.
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| 01:28am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37083
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he KFC will be introduced into schools and all the kids will get obese and thick
And what's wrong with fat kids? They're CUTE DAMMIT! 
/Grown Up Fat Kid |
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| 01:30am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
jamahollic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37084
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"so according to YOUR opinion, you believe sharia would 'improve' british law? well sorry you're wrong, it wont. "
Thats according to YOUR opinion.
I do believe optional shariah law concerning marriage, divorce, inheritance ect for muslims would 'improve' british law.
Would you care to explain why it so 'wrong'
"the sharia i have heard is nothing but absurd. "
Again YOUR opinion
How and why will muslims being able to choose shariah law for civil matters destroy the british way of life or break any laws, it will simply be more convenient for them and frankly it wouldn't change anything to do will non-muslims.
You keep refering to the triple talaq thing and how unjustified you feel it is. That too is Your opinion on the matter.
"Secondly, answer me, how that would impact on UK residents?... why should it change for anyone?"
Firstly it WOULDNT do anything to non-muslim uk residents.
Secondly, 1 in 25 people in britain are Muslim. That is not just anyone, so why shouldnt the law change?
And finally the muslim market in britain is expanding. why shouldnt major brands such as KFC follow the lead of others such as asda and macdonalds(i hear they opened halal branches in the uk and australia) and serve halal meat; it would probably make them alot of money. Why are muslims such a threat to you?
"giving into any part of sharia now will lead to this country being doomed."
how exactly will this lead to our doom? |
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| 08:41am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37087
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The KFC will be introduced into schools and all the kids will get obese and thick
there has been no proven link between the continuous consumption of KFC and the level of thickness in a child.
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| 08:49am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37088
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i like the resort to the "you're wrong", "no it doesn't", "you all smell of poo anyway" arguements.
:)
basic, out of curiosity, how would inheritance be different under sharia?
1 in 25 people in britain are Muslim.
thats interesting. you would invoke a change in law for just 4% of the country? |
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| 11:07am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37090
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Think Tank
"My point Basic...is political construction should be based on equality and human rights"
That is never the case though, we all don't have an equal chance even under the current climate. Asylum seekers can't work, they're not allowed to, you saying that they are part of an equal system? Even if they had transferrable skills, they simply won't be allowed to work. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, it's a legal status quo.
"To accomodate laws based on religion is discriminatory"
Yes it is, but it depends on what level of discrimination, and we all discriminate (not in the racial sense of the term). For example, what do I care about Hackney council which is about 200 miles away from me and what inititiatives they have or what problems they face? My issue is, what goes on in my borough and what my local authority is doing. I care about that more than I do about what Hackney Council does. It's discriminating to serve the interests of your own community and this is all it is. I'm not saying that councils work in opposition, they are still run under a general form of government so they fit under an umbrella. But each council has it's own interest and it is up to that council to manage itself.
What's my point? You look around the UK and you tell me if there is an equal system? Each city has it's own way of running things yet working under the laws of the land. If we can accept that, why can't we accept a Shariah based system (which serves UK residents) but still complies with the general aspects of law.
I mean you go stateside and it's a completely different system, each state has it's own laws not just in civil matters but also in criminal matters. Are you saying that America is set to ruin because it has numerous types of law based on state. Even if every faith system had it's own form of civil law (which wouldn't emproach on another belief system) the types of law would still be less than the numerous laws prevalent within the United States.
Thanks for the insight about Manu, but the laws of Manu is about the stratification of a hindu society isn't it? This is more to do with micro changes (within families) rather than changing the state of the ummah to revolutionise a state. I mean capsette made the point that these changes already exist. I didn't know this, many people didn't know this, did the archbishop know this? If nobody knew that such changes exist anyway, it just goes to show how little impact they have on the society as a whole.
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| 11:09am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37091
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“1 in 25 people in britain are Muslim.
thats interesting. you would invoke a change in law for just 4% of the country?”
It’s actually even less than that and shows how ridiculous it all is.
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| 11:20am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37092
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reelist
As I said before, I'm not too clued up on the whole concept of inheritance as it stands. But under Islamic laws of Shariah, the inheritance of someone is to be split to all of the offspring of the deceased individual. The shares are split in accordance to the number of offspring but the shares are divided. The shares are fixed where as under current laws there is no fixed inheritance given to siblings. Obviously the law would apply to all that mutually agree on this form of inheritance.
But like I said, I aint big on finances but my point is, rather than focusing on Shariah law and tarnishing it as all bad, which the press has made a hoo haa about why don't the legal experts atleast consider it for analysis. |
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| 11:33am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37093
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shit, if it means no inheritance tax then im all for it.
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| 11:39am, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37094
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“As I said before, I'm not too clued up on the whole concept of inheritance as it stands. But under Islamic laws of Shariah, the inheritance of someone is to be split to all of the offspring of the deceased individual. The shares are split in accordance to the number of offspring but the shares are divided. The shares are fixed where as under current laws there is no fixed inheritance given to siblings. Obviously the law would apply to all that mutually agree on this form of inheritance.”
Basic – so if as a moslem, I wanted to go down the sharia route regarding inheritance, why cant I just divide my assets in the islamic way and have that in my will? Why the need for change to what occurs already?
If my family are god-fearing followers of sharia, then they would accept what I have written in my will because it follows the sharia law
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| 12:34pm, 15th Feb 2008 |
Sharia comments trigger criticism |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37095
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^No harm in that at all.
Except that laws can change, which means that as there is no religious argument (as it isn't a religious issue) the law won't be seen as intervening on a religious belief.
If there is a Shariah based agreement it may be more difficult to over-ride that.
It's pretty much like saying that I can r | |
