| 09:18am, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
nwa
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36457
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The daughter of a British imam is living under police protection after receiving death threats from her father for converting to Christianity.
The 31-year-old, whose father is the leader of a mosque in Lancashire, has moved house an astonishing 45 times after relatives pledged to hunt her down and kill her.
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| 09:33am, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Mustafa_Mustafa11
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36458
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I like this girl, shes crazayyyy!! |
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| 11:17am, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
bathing_ape
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36460
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Good for her. More people should convert from Islam.
Shame she chose another doofus religion. Should have become one of those Korean teapot believers or something
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| 11:28am, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Mustafa_Mustafa11
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36462
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Shes a proper rebel man!! She should be a goth!!
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| 11:32am, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36463
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'Shame she chose another doofus religion'
right.... |
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| 11:36am, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Mustafa_Mustafa11
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36465
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What do you guys think?
She chose Christianity because she loves and understands it so well...
Orr, she really wants to piss her Dad and family off..
Do this!! Do thatt!!! FOLLOW ISLAM!! FOLLOW ITT!!!
Ok dad, ill show you!!
Too much pressure always breaks the celery stick..
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| 11:52am, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
bathing_ape
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36466
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soz basic, didn't mean to sound anti Islamic with the 'another doofus religion', was more focussing on the korean teapot sect than Islam or Christianity. |
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| 12:34pm, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36468
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oh that's alright then, not that I know much about Korean Teapots  |
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| 01:35pm, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
muzlimjatt
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36469
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"What do you guys think?
She chose Christianity because she loves and understands it so well...
Orr, she really wants to piss her Dad and family off..
Do this!! Do thatt!!! FOLLOW ISLAM!! FOLLOW ITT!!!
Ok dad, ill show you!!
Too much pressure always breaks the celery stick.."
from her age, im assuming its the former.. - oh well, we'll let Allah decide, nothing for us to pass judgement over.... |
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| 02:06pm, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
bathing_ape
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36470
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Basic, check it out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4648581.stm
Defo worth looking into as an alternative. They are clearly sane and rational. |
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| 03:59pm, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36471
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Alice in Wonderland  |
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| 04:58pm, 11th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
HELLGHAST
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36472
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ah man this woman's taken the 'daughter-rebelling-against-daddy' thing further than necessary. |
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| 10:03am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
bathing_ape
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36475
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She didn't need to convert I guess but when you see something wrong in one thing and then people from another faith show you kindness and compassion (something severely lacking in the more backward of these types) you say 'this seems a better thing'.
If you are never shown that your own religion also includes kindness and compassion why would you stick with it ? |
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| 10:33am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
pumpernikel
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36476
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I guess you can renounce the religion without converting, however, I think that saying that she did this to show her dad a thing or two is just undermining her sense. She's 31 years old, and by that age you knw the ins and out of your religion especially if you practise as she was doing so.
Is it too much to think that maybe the religion was not for her? I sometimes think that I wouldn't survive ,thinking how I do and living the life that I do if I was born into certain religions, but I think it's another question altogether for one to give up everything , especially family and convert. I don't know if I would be able to ever do that despite disagreeing with a religion . That is strong move for one to make, so don't think she did it to p155 off the dad. |
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| 10:33am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Kaalia_81
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36477
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Christianity is quite close to Islam, no? The Imam should take heart that his daughter didnt go the way towards something as ghastly as Hinduism/ |
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| 10:36am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
bathing_ape
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36478
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Fuck off Kaalia, you teapot worshipping slag. |
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| 10:41am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Kaalia_81
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36479
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teapot is the way to go and with typhoo even better! |
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| 11:01am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
pumpernikel
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36480
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kaalia, what faith to you follow? |
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| 11:11am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Kaalia_81
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36481
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why do you ask pumpernikel? |
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| 11:27am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
pumpernikel
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36482
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i just don't understand where calling Hinduism "ghastly" comes from. I never heard it being remarked in that light and no, im not hindu |
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| 11:39am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Kaalia_81
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36484
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just a tongue in cheek remark. |
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| 11:45am, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
pumpernikel
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36485
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o,, can't really get humour on theses forums... just found it really random. |
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| 10:14pm, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
desiboy579
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36489
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"Orr, she really wants to piss her Dad and family off.."
In that case, wouldn't she be a jew now? |
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| 11:02pm, 12th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
wizard23
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36490
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its strange that she said she left her religion becuase she was being forced into a marriage.
what has that got to do with her religion.
maybe she just didnt believe in islam so converted.
theres actually a group of ex muslims who support each other after they have left. |
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| 12:25am, 13th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36492
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"ah man this woman's taken the 'daughter-rebelling-against-daddy' thing further than necessary."
Why do you say that?
she may have just chosen a way of life suited to her.
For Gods sake, if you preach tolerance then show some!!!! |
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| 05:48pm, 27th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Red_Chillies
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36596
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Its interesting, but I think her reasons for conversion were more to do with the idea in her head about arranged marriage with islam.
to escape, she chose a religion where she didnt have to conform to that kind of mentality.
Also its crazy that media sticks up people who have come out of islam to help with its anti islamic propaganda. |
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| 07:08pm, 29th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
ludwig
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36607
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It's quite sad to read 'Hannah' assumed forced marriage was sanctioned by Islam. Unfortunately she mistook a cultural norm for a religious one.
Worryingly the article goes on to read 'Hannah' delivers lectures on Islam in Churches, this is even though she herself has a distorted view of the faith. |
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| 02:45am, 30th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
labh_janjua
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36608
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reasons for conversion aside....
Death threats from your own father? What on earth?! Im sure islam doesnt sanction this so for as confused the girl is about the line between culture/religion so is the girl's parent! |
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| 02:48am, 30th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
labh_janjua
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36609
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......even more worringly he is an imam....surely he should know better.... |
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| 09:19pm, 30th Dec 2007 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Apni
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36611
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Lol damn.... not a daddy's lil angel is she... |
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| 04:41pm, 20th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
doc_bollywood
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37122
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well the official penalty for apostasy in islam is death. it was a tough conversation when i told my mum and dad that i basically dont really believe in islam any more; my mum kind of went into denial and doesnt really mention that side of things any more, my dad just said that (re:the death for apostasy law) it must be some misinterpretation, but if that was true then he doesnt believe in that kind of religion and called it "rubbish"(ie Islam). My parents are pretty chilled out and liberal for Muslims ,love em loads :)... |
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| 04:55pm, 20th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37123
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'well the official penalty for apostasy in islam is death'
Depends on what you call official. Some Muslim states insist on a death penalty for apostasy others don't. |
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| 05:01pm, 20th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
doc_bollywood
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37124
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Official meaning as in accord with sahih hadith that form the basis of most forms of islamic law
Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."
Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"
Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"
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| 05:16pm, 20th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
doc_bollywood
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37125
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In any case, regarding these death threats, it doesn't actually matter what's "official", or what some states do or some states don't.
What actually matters is that, for the islamically versed, there exist hadith which say to kill someone who changes their religion. As islam is presumably open to interpretation (especially by someone who calls themselves an Imam,) this would explain why the girl was getting death threats. What country X or country Y officially makes of Islam or Sharia doesn't matter, as the punishments and suggestions of killing and violence are already outlined in hadith for all to read. |
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| 05:36pm, 20th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37126
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'well the official penalty for apostasy in islam is death'
Depends on what you call official. Some Muslim states insist on a death penalty for apostasy others don't.
what does islam say, basic?
not muslim states, islam itself.
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| 09:46pm, 21st Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37130
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Reelist
Worth a skim read.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01.shtml
But in summary, The Quran does not give a specified order to kill apostates. The freedom of faith is prevalent there. Muslims adhere to the rulings of what is written in the Quran first and foremost.
The hadith references that Doc Bollywood has put forward are for those individuals that have declared themselves as apostates as well as being traitors to an Islamic state. i.e. people who plot against the nation from within or join external forces to plot against the Islamic nation. What is known as Treason.
In none of these cases have the apostates been apostates alone but people who have been involved in plots against the nation. Which is why some scholars believe that if it would have been apostasy alone it wouldn't be punishable by death. As the Quran does not instruct it, also if apostates are to be sentenced to death, Muslims wouldn't even tolerate having non Muslims as part of their society. Yet as part of an Islamic state, there are provisions and laws set to protect minorities. Even if we look at Prophet Muhammad's family he had 2 uncle's that refused to become Muslims. One of them (Abu Lahab) still protected him and didn't turn against him yet Abu Jahl always plotted against the prophet and caused mischief for him during the early days of revelation.
So fair enough, the debate is open, but if you look at the historical significance and apply some logic, you will see that the treatment of non Muslims by Muslims has been that of pro choice rather than coercion, so by using a similar form of logic, what bearing would it have if an individual leaves Islam because of their own personal reason? It only becomes a problem if people leave the faith system and aim to attack and plot against the followers whereby the calls for death have been made. |
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| 03:21pm, 22nd Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37132
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Basic, anyone who was a follower, but then converts to another religion, automatically changes his or her allegiance. They are also seen by the members of his/her former religion as rejecting their family, their community, their religious leaders, holy books, and more importantly their god(s).
“……pro choice rather than coercion”
You can rationalize is as much as you like, but jizya if a form of coercion.
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2007/09/14/clear/
Anyway.....
lost - http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTkxMzU5MzY=.html?full=true#full
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| 03:59pm, 22nd Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37133
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'Basic, anyone who was a follower, but then converts to another religion, automatically changes his or her allegiance. They are also seen by the members of his/her former religion as rejecting their family, their community, their religious leaders, holy books, and more importantly their god'
That's interesting, so you say that's the case of everyone who leaves a faith system then?
As for Jizya being a form of coercion - once again a matter of opinion Candide. |
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| 04:45pm, 22nd Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37134
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“That's interesting, so you say that's the case of everyone who leaves a faith system then?”
I don’t mean every-single-person. But in general that is the case. e.g. If you decided to convert to Roman Catholicism, then you would pledge allegiance to the catholic doctrine, which includes the “catholic (universal) family”, the holy see, the leaders of the church, and the pope. The same for Church of England, the eastern orthodox church etc. Look at the fears that arose amongst many groups when JFK ran for president. Another religion – islam – look at the way people who have converted to islam have changed their allegiance – their “overnight” acquiesce for people on the other side of the world, whom they don’t know, and have never been to. They talk about the islamic ummah being like a human body – if my palestianian brother hurts, then I hurt blah blah blah. eg. the so called American Taliban – Christian guy who converted, went to and decided to fight the Americans in Afghanistan. Look at converts in this country – Trevor brooks etc. So yes, people who convert to another religion, also transfer their allegiance to different set of beliefs, culture, religious leaders etc.
You’re saying that doesn’t happen?? Seriously?
“As for Jizya being a form of coercion - once again a matter of opinion Candide.”
It not really. You don’t need to get all defensive. Jizya, or various form of “religious tax” has been going on long before islam, and it still goes on today in other religions in. Religious groups given perfectly good rationalized reasons as to why they impose such taxes. But it’s really just a form of discrimination hence, it coercises people to convert and enjoy the “benefits” of the new religion. The Jews and Christians have also been doing it. People of a different religion are discriminated against, and people who want to convert are given incentives, e.g., in Ireland during the 1700’s the penal laws prevented Irish (catholic) people from owning land. If they converted to Protestantism, then they were allowed to keep their land and titles. Hence you will find people with basically the exact surname following a different religion (because their ancestors converted for the benefits. In India and other third world countries, missionaries from different religious groups give incentives for people to convert to their religion – education, housing, money, jobs etc. coercing people to convert takes many forms, placing taxes on them, and offering them benefits (no tax, equality etc) is one of them. You may not want to agree because you may think it show islam or any religion in general in a bad light. That’s understandable.
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| 09:55pm, 22nd Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37135
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Candide I get your point, but you seem to have missed mine. Yes, fair enough, for people who leave a faith system and embrace a new belief they create their own networks and find a new 'family' etc...but you're also assuming that many people leave their families and friends behind, and I also find it a bit amusing that you think that those who change their faith systems turn into militants.
Candide, I don't know much about you, but I do know you're a man of the World and how you summed that up was pretty simplistic for your own standards. There are many people that change faith systems yet maintain family networks and even their friendships, irrespective of what faith they change from and change to. You will get people who think that an individual has let the side down, no doubt about it, heck, there will be people who are willing to make a statement be it through verbal slurs and violence, but my point is, that each case is different.
However there are people who change faith but still don't change their network of friends, family and even political allegiances. I met one guy in the Mosque who was an English Muslim, you wouldn't think so as he didn't have the Muslim look, whilst I was talking to him we talked about the UK and he was adamant about his allegiance to the UK and how he will always be Brit and it pisses him off when ethnics start bashing his country yet live in the country etc...I've also met people that are like how you have defined but you can clearly see that there are differences and that is 2 cases. |
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| 11:05am, 23rd Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37136
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religion and family life are intricately linked. if someone was to convert, they might not consider it changing aliegences but theres a much stronger change that their families will.
rejecting your families belief system is almost like rejecting family itself. |
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| 12:56pm, 23rd Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37137
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“but you're also assuming that many people leave their families and friends behind, and I also find it a bit amusing that you think that those who change their faith systems turn into militants.”
“There are many people that change faith systems yet maintain family networks and even their friendships, irrespective of what faith they change from and change to.”
“adamant about his allegiance to the UK and how he will always be Brit and it pisses him off when ethnics start bashing his country yet live in the country etc”
Admittedly, I posted near clocking-off time and I was dying for a drink, but rereading what I posted, I didn’t mention anything about people who convert leaving their families/friends behind (in most cases it’s the other way round). Nor did I say that converts turn into militants. I gave two examples of people who have turned militant pointing out they have no “real” relationship with palestianains/afgans/Iraqis etc on the other side of the planet, but “feel” that they part of the same community and are willing to fight for them – one an afro-Caribbean, the other a yank from the US. I didn’t say everyone who converts become like them. :S . Converts are usually more religious, more religiously educated than people who are born into the religion. They are usually critical of people born into the religion esp. when they are not religious, or mix culture and religion together. Someone being asked the question – are you british or moslem is retarded. One is nationality the other is religion. A person can be both. Go to any middle eastern country and you will find people being proud of being a Syrian, Jordanian, Palestinian, Iraqi etc. in the uk, being pissed of with ethnics is not solely the prerogative of “white” people. Ethnics do it as well. Search barfi for threads about embarrassing behavior by Asians and look at the name-calling that pops up - freshies, tps etc; the majority of them are disparaging.
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| 01:32pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37138
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"religion and family life are intricately linked. if someone was to convert, they might not consider it changing aliegences but theres a much stronger change that their families will.
rejecting your families belief system is almost like rejecting family itself."
True, but you were asking about the Islamic stance on apostasy. If people thought in the same line as your statement then yeah, apostasy would be punishable by death, but as many people do, their religious lives and their family lives do differ. On the same note, it's also wrong to assume that family members hold the same level of religous values. Often it's the parents who are more religious and the kids aren't, or you get cases where the kids are more religious and the parents aren't, and also the varying religious levels between siblings. But they still maintain a level of family unity because neither is considering a moral high ground. |
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| 01:34pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37139
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Candide |
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| 03:54pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inner_silence
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37140
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This is thread is well funny.
When someone converts to islam, people are quick to say "islam is the 'fastest growing' religion in the world" and they saw the 'beauty of islam'
But when someone wants to leave islam its because they are a 'rebel' or have a 'distorted view of islam'. Do converts to islam not often have a distorted view of their previous faith?
"Also its crazy that media sticks up people who have come out of islam to help with its anti islamic propaganda."
This comment is especially funny considering countless media sources of people converting to islam. But all of a sudden someone who has left islam has been given some publicity and the media is 'anti-islam'.
Maybe converts to islam dont receive as much publicity perhaps because err they don't receive death threats from their own fathers or anyone else, how about that? |
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| 05:24pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37141
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i only asked about the islamic stance on the punishment of apostacy because you stated this:
"Depends on what you call official. Some Muslim states insist on a death penalty for apostasy others don't."
and as you've said before, what happens in islamic states and what is stated in islam aparantly differ.
i still don't get how two religious texts could contradict one another. but thats another discussion for another day...!
"If people thought in the same line as your statement then yeah, apostasy would be punishable by death,"
nowhere in my last post did i say that death is a just or valid punishment for converting. all i'm saying is that people rarely convert without finding there is a conflict with family life. that does not mean the convert should die.
believing that one person could convert to a religion different to that of their family without such conflict is a bit naive, even for you :p |
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| 06:42pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37142
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Reelist. To understand the 'Islamic Stance' of a lot of things is based on interpretation. People often think that although Islam is pretty regimented in it's outlook, that do's and don'ts are clearly defined. That isn't the case, and why should it? Would God want us to live as sheep so that we just go by yes laws and no laws? If that was the case the brain would only be used to activate our senses pretty much.
The power of thought is welcomed within Islam and yes on one issue there can be numerous viewpoints, even on issues that are so imprinted in Islam as being haraam and halal there is elements of leeway for extreme necessity, so a lot of laws are not stagnant, they are open to interpretation based on individual situations and the greater good is always observed for the individual and the impact on the Islamic society and it's residents. That is assuming if the individual is in an Islamic state, if not, all of the state based laws do not apply to a Muslim, rather they should follow the laws of the land they live in, and observe their personal Shariah.
The system of Shariah works on an individual and a collective basis. Certain duties apply to the individual, certain duties apply to the collective and certain duties are applied to the ruler of an Islamic nation. The one underlying issue is that under an Islamic state is that there should be an element of unity and conscience that your actions as an individual can impact on the people around you. So a public declaration of apostasy and recruiting people to go against the belief system of Islam be it by protest or by violence would be seen as an act of unrest. Similarly if I had a campaign to go against the Queen and The Church of England, and reject the laws for me as a UK citizen, the crime would be serious. However it would be different if I acknowledged who the Queen was, and acknowledged the Church of England but I had my disagreements with both. So much so that I had an allegiance to the Church of England but because of my personal interpretation, I choose not to have my allegiances there, rather another faith system would cater for me and my needs. There's a difference there, both scenarios there is a gripe, but in the first scenario, the gripe is so severe that you're willing to take other people under your wing to cause further dissent. In the second scenario, it's more of a consciencous objection which is about the individual.
Yes there will be disagreements between the individual and their family and peers of the former faith system, I wasn't assuming that everything would be aye okay, but the individual apostate isn't considered a threat as they have left a faith system due to a 'personal' gripe.
The different interpretations come about because in all of the documeted cases of apostasy in the hadith, they are all cases whereby people were committing treason.
Many people take things literally (which is why we have the problems of terrorism or inciting terrorism) rather than taking a 'What would Muhammad do?' perspective. If people applied that logic and researched his history, you'd see that his manner with those who refused to declare Islam as their faith was still tolerant. What people fail to see is that Prophet Muhammad was a messenger of Islam but he also had other roles, such as being a leader, a husband and a parent, as well as being a warrior. If we just look at one aspect of his life, we only see one aspect, but the point is we can learn a lot from how he dealt with non Muslims and how he dealt with his own family members who were non Muslim, some who went as far to cause him harm and some who always had his back but refused to become Muslims.
That is essentially how the methodology of Shariah should be, by consulting the Quran, the hadith with strong chains of narration which document his life. Rather than people just focusing on one or 2 lines of hadith 2 justify their reason for killing someone who has changed faith everything we do on a daily basis have a context to it, similarly whatever prophet Muhammad every ordered had a context to it.
I know this is going to be one heck of an essay. It would't beat Candide's though, he's the heavyweight essay writer these days. |
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| 09:16pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Smooth_stallion
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37143
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It's not the Islamic principles she turned away from, but her family trying to superimpose a marriage on her as a kid [quite possibly to some old man]. Its the re teacher who led her astray.. little bastid. he's the one who should be targeted, not the girl. |
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| 09:32pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37146
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^of course. nobody would leave islam. islam is perfect. nobody ever converts away from islam.
(basic, i'll get back to your post when i can set aside 3-4 hours to read it :p)
(probably when im back in the office tomorrow) |
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| 11:39pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
simran_uk
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37147
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Im shocked at this!! |
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| 11:55pm, 24th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37148
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Wouldn't it be really really funny if God didn't care at all, one way or the other ? |
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| 01:26pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37149
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"So a public declaration of apostasy and recruiting people to go against the belief system of Islam be it by protest or by violence would be seen as an act of unrest. Similarly if I had a campaign to go against the Queen and The Church of England, and reject the laws for me as a UK citizen, the crime would be serious."
you're talking about religion and law as if they are one and the same. they are not - at least not in the UK.
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| 03:11pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37150
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"you're talking about religion and law as if they are one and the same. they are not - at least not in the UK."
I just gave that as an example, having said that, there is still a link, albeit minor. |
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| 03:12pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37151
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lol@Basic’s essay. You’re still the master.
lol@ the wording
The words that you omit say more than the words you include.
e.g. - “So a public declaration of apostasy and recruiting people to go against the belief system of Islam be it by protest or by violence would be seen as an act of unrest.”
What’s wrong with saying publicly what religion you follow? Isn’t it wrong to pretend to follow one faith, when in actual fact you’re following another? So why not be truthful about it, publicly?
Recruiting? Erm do you mean missionary work. Recruiting sounds…. sinister (maybe that was why the word was used). And isn’t missionary work promoted in islam?
Protest/violence?? Erm, you omitted the word peacefully? People usually declare their conversion to another faith, and do missionary work peacefully, eg, jehovah’s bloody witness @ doorsteps, hari effing krishnas @ airports etc. People who convert to islam do not go against this country’s belief system by protest or violence (well the vast majority do not), why would you think that people converting to other religions would? :S
lol@Inders
Theres a god?
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| 03:14pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37152
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lol Candide, you're seriously reading too much into my post fella. |
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| 03:16pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37153
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^^^^
Basic moonwalking
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| 03:16pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37154
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!Protest/violence?? Erm, you omitted the word peacefully? People usually declare their conversion to another faith, and do missionary work peacefully, eg, jehovah’s bloody witness @ doorsteps, hari effing krishnas @ airports etc. People who convert to islam do not go against this country’s belief system by protest or violence (well the vast majority do not), why would you think that people converting to other religions would? :S"
If you read my post clearly, this was if it was under an Islamic state whereby if an individual is going against the state and the religion. Not merely disagreeing to it.
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| 03:17pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37155
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I was never a big fan of the moonwalk, more into the hustle  |
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| 03:29pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37156
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So under an islamic state, if I decided to convert to something else, I would be going against the state because the state laws are built upon the laws of the religion? Doesn’t this just go back to the what I said about the fear that people who convert change their allegiance?
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| 03:45pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37157
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There are Hari K's at the airport? no way? which one?
i love those little fellas. |
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| 04:17pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37158
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"So under an islamic state, if I decided to convert to something else, I would be going against the state because the state laws are built upon the laws of the religion? Doesn’t this just go back to the what I said about the fear that people who convert change their allegiance?"
How would you be going against the state? It's your personal objection to the dominant belief system. Yet you remain within the state and if you want to be governed by that state and its laws, you're still a resident.
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| 11:34pm, 25th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37159
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"Theres a god? "
Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I'm not sure enough to kill anybody, or create a law that kills anybody over it though.
Pure case of Basic defending the indefensible again. Check the Afghanistani apostate thread again. Basic would prefer a system where justice is served by an apostate lying and claiming insanity rather then see a man who doesn't believe anymore say it loudly and proudly and live. |
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| 09:16am, 26th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37160
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where have I defended the indefensible Inders? |
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| 10:11am, 26th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37161
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“How would you be going against the state? …………”
Your going against the state because the state itself is based on the 4 islamic schools of jurisprudence – the maliki, the hanbali, the hanafi and the shafi whose ‘islamic laws’ are taken from the quran, the hadiths, al-qiyas and ijma. According to all 4 schools - if a person becomes an apostate, then he is given the chance to retract it and allowed to return to the islamic fold. If he doesn’t, then his property is confiscated, his children are taken away and his wife is allowed to divorce him. He’s then sentenced to death. It doesn’t matter if its his own personal objection to the dominant belief system and his objection is peaceful and muted. The idea that ‘death to apostates’ has to do with politics and traitors to the islamic state etc is something (an excuse?) that only a handful of contemporary scholars proclaim in this modern and pc world to the non-islamic. It is not widely accepted by the islamic themselves. That’s why I posted the J&M cartoon.
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2007/09/14/clear/
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| 11:46am, 26th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37163
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lol @ excuse.
You guys are seriously looking into this as if I condemn or condone it. Yet I haven't said anything about either. Reelist asked, and I said it was open for debate and that new debates have come forward.
Make of that what you will. |
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| 12:43pm, 26th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37164
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the justification of murder is one that shouldn't be debated.
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| 02:50pm, 26th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37165
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^I agree
But the justification of having a death pentalty for treason is and that was my point. |
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| 09:19pm, 26th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37166
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^ You're equating treason with apostasy no one else is.
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| 09:34pm, 26th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37167
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^Nope. I haven't equated anything from anything. I have merely presented the debate surrounding apostasy. I didn't voice an opinion of it being right or wrong nor it being punishable by death.
All my debate was, is that the justiification for killing an apostate is weak as the documented cases of apostates that have been killed are those that have been involved in other crimes like treason.
So if I said the above, how could you possibly deduce from that, that I assume apostasy and treason as the same? |
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| 11:21am, 27th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
doc_bollywood
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37168
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Problem is there isn't as far as I know anything corroborating the idea that the death penalty is only for apostates who also go against the state, or at least if there is I haven't found easy access to what would be a useful context in which to understand these hadith. Without the context, the hadith literally say to "kill whosoever changes his religion", so if you could point me in the direction of the context that supports your argument Basic that would be great! |
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| 05:49pm, 27th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37169
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"Nope. I haven't equated anything from anything. I have merely presented the debate surrounding apostasy. I didn't voice an opinion of it being right or wrong nor it being punishable by death."
Apostasy or treason. You're talking about both at the same time. When someone calls you up on one, you hide in the other.
Noone is suggesting this girl is out to kill any muslims. I doubt she is plotting the downfall of any islamic state.
I can't be bothered looking through religious scripture for common sense.
Heres my take in as few words as possible:
There are muslims and there are non-muslims.
These two states are not opposed to each other.
People should be able to choose which they are going to call themselves.
These people should be respected for their choice, no matter which state they were born in or which state they have declared themselves previously.
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| 09:22pm, 27th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37170
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doc
The site I posted seems to discuss it in great depth with references for further research if you wish.
Inders
"Apostasy or treason. You're talking about both at the same time. When someone calls you up on one, you hide in the other."
I can't even begin to understand what you mean by that. I'm not hiding behind anything Inders. If I was hiding from anything about this thread, I wouldn't continue posting.
Nice take.
Here's mine
I agree with a death penalty
I don't agree that a death penalty is justified for someone who chooses to leave a faith system and embraces another.
I do agree that there should be a death penalty for crimes like Murder and Treason were the security of a society may be at risk.
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| 09:26pm, 27th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37171
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"I don't agree that a death penalty is justified for someone who chooses to leave a faith system and embraces another."
Just to extend on that before I get pulled up about it. I don't think there should be any penalty for someone doing so. It's a personal choice at the end of the day. |
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| 09:39pm, 27th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37172
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This is madness.
You're bringing up a half related issue into this debate.
I think the death penalty does play a tiny part in this debate but on the other side.
The question should be whether people who kill other people for apostasy should be given the death penalty or not. Nothing to do with the Apostate. |
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| 10:48pm, 27th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37173
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how is it a half related issue?
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| 11:34pm, 27th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37174
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I just explained the only role that the death penalty should play in this debate.
I'll repeat.
The question should be whether people who kill other people for apostasy should be given the death penalty or not. |
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| 07:44pm, 28th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37175
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"The question should be whether people who kill other people for apostasy should be given the death penalty or not."
I don't see why not. But if it's state sanctioned, who'se going to kill the apostate killer?
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| 08:23pm, 28th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37176
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But if it's state sanctioned, who'se going to kill the apostate killer?
There could be a regime change, there could be a trial at the hague about it.
Freedom of religion is one of the enshrined rights under UN charter. |
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| 03:13pm, 29th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37177
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"I do agree that there should be a death penalty for crimes like Murder and Treason were the security of a society may be at risk."
Does that include people who go (peacefully and violently) against and recruit others against this country? Fuck, thats alot of executions to be done (including some on this board).
lost - http://www.veoh.com/videos/v6286551pRXcWggf
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| 08:53pm, 29th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37178
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Candide you volunteering?
What episode is that? I'm following Sky One showings. |
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| 09:32pm, 29th Feb 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37179
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To do the executions? Yes pls.
lost - yesterday's US episode which will be shown on sky one on sunday.
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| 12:13am, 1st Mar 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
mamatedave
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37184
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Interesting to read Mufti Ebrahim Desai's ruling on this.I suppose at least he aint beating around the bush on this.
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=09dd6c4a67c686f5bc692572bb8082f0
Al-Irtidaad (to renegade from Islam)
The religion of Islam is the most perfect and complete religion. The laws of Islam are flawlessly designed by Allah. These laws of Islam are for the benefit and of mankind.
Islam induces unity and always condemns division and sects.
Once a person accepts Islam, he sees its beauty and perfection. If after seeing the beauty of Islam, a Muslim turns away from it, it means he turned away from perfection towards imperfection, disassociating himself from the unity of the Muslims ummah towards a way that is unacceptable by Allah.
Allah always wishes good for His servants. By one accepting Islam, he will be Insha Allah entitled to paradise. However, after accepting Islam, one turns renegade, it means he has become entitled to Jahannam (Hell). This is not what Allah wishes for His servants. To prevent more people from becoming true candidates of the fire of Hell, Allah legislated a deterrent for it, i.e. the law of execution.
This law of executing the renegade is a unanimously accepted rule according to all Muslims.
Al-Hadith
Sayyiduna Ibn Abbaas radhi allahu anhuma says: Nabi sallalahu alayhi wasallam said "Execute the one who renegades from his Deen." (Sahih al-Bukhariy Hadith6299, Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4059 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)
Sayyiduna ‘Uthmaan radhiyallahu anhu narrates hearing Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "……The one who changes his religion after accepting Islam must be executed." (Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4057 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)
Sayyiduna Abdullah radhiallahu anhu narrates Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "It is not Halaal to kill a Muslim except for 3 reason: …no.3.The one that turns away from his Deen, thereby disassociating himself from the group of Muslims."(Sahih Muslim Hadith4351 edited by Shaikh Khalil ma’moon Sheeha)
Ijma’
The one who renegades from Islam must be executed is the unanimous verdict of the sahaaba, none of them rejected it.
The unanimity of the Sahaaba on an issue is conclusive evidence of the same.
The Fuqaha (Jurists)
All the 4 Mazhabs are unanimous that a renegade must be executed if he does not revert to Islam. Hereunder are classical texts from each of the 4 Mazhabs:
Al-Hanafiyyah
Imam al-Marghinaaniy says: "If a Muslim, may Allah forbid turns away from Islam, the religion of Islam should be presented to him. If he has any doubts they should be cleared…and he should be kept under supervision for 3 days. If he reverts to Islam, he must be set free, otherwise he should be executed. (Al-Hidaya) Allamah Ibn ‘Aabideen says: "Note well! It is unanimous that a renegade from Islam must be executed" (Rasaa’il Ibn Aabideen)
Al-Maalikiyyah
Imam Maalik says: "The one who renegades from Islam to another religion and exposes it will be asked to repent from his action. If he does not repent, he must be executed." (Al-Mu’atta lil Imam Maalik)
Al-shaafi’iyyah
Imam al-Shaafi’iy says: "One who renegades from Islam will not be left alone, either he reverts to Islam or he will be executed." (Kitab al-Umm)
Al-Hanaabilah
Allamah Ibn Qudaama al-Hanbaliy says: "All the scholars are unanimous that a renegade must be executed." (Al-Mughniy with Sharh al-Kabir Vol.10 Pg.74 Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah Beirut)
From the above it is explicitly clear that there is no leeway in the religion of Islam regarding executing a renegade from Islam.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai |
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| 04:32pm, 1st Mar 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
balance_singh
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37186
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basic do you think british and pakistani citizens who fight for the taliban against their own countries forces should be executed? |
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| 10:25pm, 1st Mar 2008 |
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversio |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 37190
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"basic do you think british and pakistani citizens who fight for the taliban against their own countries forces should be executed?" [balance_singh]
Yes. |
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