| 09:28am, 8th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35021
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Exactly which way of life are you talking about? There are many different schools of thought in islam and many different sects. Each way of life is different to the other. Forget about what those pesky Indians and other non moslems say.
You may follow one way which others from a different school of thought would consider to be ignorant, wrong and insulting. Just like you consider certain followers of islam to be ignorant, wrong and insulting. You can produce the relevant religious quote to back it up. And so can they.
Fix the problems at home first.
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| 10:39am, 8th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
tapas
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35025
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Platinum...
The muslim way of life?
Shia?
Sunni?
Wahabi?
Sufi?
etc...
Which one? |
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| 10:44am, 8th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
tapas
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35026
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Oh and as for your comment;
'Would it be right of me to ask a Hindu to add/remove a god?'
Hindus believe in ONLY ONE GOD, but has many forms / names etc.
Theres only ONE, you can call him / her / it what ever you please!
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| 11:09am, 8th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
platinum786
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35027
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the core fundemantals are all the same, the difference is only in politics and some practises based on some hadith.
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| 08:41pm, 8th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
paki_from_mars
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35048
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platinum,
those people who want to alter the quran cant, why cos god says it himself it cant be altered. im happy with that, people who say it needs to be altered and reformed need to be corrected and told it is the people who practise it who need to be reformed.
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| 09:49pm, 8th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35050
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We consider the content of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) as correct.
The diversion in the religion is caused by some of the hadiths that actively ask people to do things that are not acceptable to the Quran. So no, the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are not completely correct.
However, anybody who advocates for changing the Quran needs to be refuted. Only because people who are saying that usually have very little knowledge about the Quran and it's teachings. Instead they are basing their arguments on why it should be changed on the actions of extremists set on making THEIR interpretation of the religion one that is mainstream.
Also, can I just say, the extremists are being allowed to practice their filthy agendas without any objection (most of the time) from the teachers of Islam around the world. As Candide says, if we want people to view us in a good way and stop butting into our business, then we need to sort out our problems first and not give them the chance.
But I reckon people will still have something to say.
Candide, I did some research about the compilation of the Quran as you mentioned some names. We shall have a discussion soon about it? |
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| 09:51pm, 8th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35051
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Oh sorry, I don't mean the teachings as in what the Prophet (pbuh) said. I meant hadith - which are collected by men over too long of a lapse of time for them to be completely authentic. Not all - some. Most correlate with the religion.
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| 10:18am, 9th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35062
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“the core fundemantals are all the same, the difference is only in politics and some practises based on some hadith.” – Plat
LOL, bloody hell, all the suffering that has occurred over the tens/hundreds of years over minor fundamentals, can you imagine what it would have been like if the core were not the same? You have enough on your plate with the minor stuff to worry about and sort out before worrying about people like Pat Robertson.
“As Candide says…” – MsX
Feck! Your agreeing with me? Welcome to the dark side sweety. :) .
“We shall have a discussion soon about it?”
I don’t think that’s a good idea, esp here where every Tom, Dick and Abu Hamza will wade in and go nuts.
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| 11:12am, 9th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
platinum786
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35068
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******************************************************Oh sorry, I don't mean the teachings as in what the Prophet (pbuh) said. I meant hadith - which are collected by men over too long of a lapse of time for them to be completely authentic. Not all - some. Most correlate with the religion.
******************************************************
If a Hadith has been proven to be against the teachings of the Quran it is not listed as a Hadith. There are no incorrect hadith, the difference between the hadith is perspectives/views on the same matters. What is termed as a weak hadith is a hadith that is a view/perspective of a person on a saying/teaching of the Prophet Muahmmed (PBUH) which cannot be confirmed to be accurate.
The methods used to confirm wether a hadith is considered strong/weak also varies from fiqh to fiqh however generally it is considered that those who spoke to the prophet, those who heard him speak and those who spoke/eard people who spoke/heard the prophet are considered stronger/eligible hadiths.
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| 11:14am, 9th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
platinum786
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35069
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******************************************************
LOL, bloody hell, all the suffering that has occurred over the tens/hundreds of years over minor fundamentals, can you imagine what it would have been like if the core were not the same? You have enough on your plate with the minor stuff to worry about and sort out before worrying about people like Pat Robertson.
******************************************************
Hundreds of years of suffering? Care to back that up with facts? Also do you care to compare it to the rest of the world and see wether we suffered more or less.
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| 11:17am, 9th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
platinum786
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35070
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I don't consider any other muslims method of practise to be insulting. I might feel they are wrong, but i will respect thier decision to practise as they choose, becuase none on the shools of thouhgt in islam are unislamic.
the only people who are unsialmic are the quadini's as they declared a whole new prophet and since have been declared non muslims. |
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| 12:45pm, 9th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35076
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"Also do you care to compare it to the rest of the world and see wether we suffered more or less."
would it be a victory to you if others suffered more?
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| 01:22pm, 9th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35077
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“Hundreds of years of suffering? Care to back that up with facts?” - plat
Yeah lets not talk about the conflicts between the sunnis and the shias, not just now, stirred by fuckwits in iraq, but from the time of ali. Or about offshoots like the alawis, or the alevis, or ismailis. Lets not talk about the druzes either, or the zaidis (fivers) of yemen, or the mustaali (bohras) of India. And especially not the ahmadis (the qadianis or the lahorites). Because they have all got on like a house on fire throughout the ages
“I don't consider any other muslims method of practise to be insulting. I might feel they are wrong, but i will respect thier decision to practise as they choose, becuase none on the shools of thouhgt in islam are unislamic.” - plat
I didn’t realise you were some sort of leader of islam. Its not really what your personal opinion is (although your views about the ahmadis is not surprising), but views in general, eg, many non shiites consider the self mutilation that goes on during the day of ashura to be very unislamic.
“…..wether we suffered more or less.”
Its not a numbers game.
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| 09:45pm, 9th Oct 2007 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Apni
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 35094
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I don't think.... Its Islam itself people are asking to change..etc..
Its mentalities and attitudes that definitely do need changing.
How often do you see people confusing religion with culture?
How often do u see..people talking about bias history..when they really don't have a clue?
And..How many times do you see..muslims getting defensive and all.."islam is right and Clear..a way of life etc..YOU are wrong"..even when the subject is controversial even in Islam?
Everything is not clear cut .. even the basics like namaz..are controversial..
If the rules were plain simple and everything was right and dandy and if there was only one "way of life"..then.there wouldnt be any shias muslims sunnis wahabis..duyobandhis mirzai..and what nots... fighting amongst each other today...
Maybe islam doesn't need changing.. but the people that represent it arent giving off a very nice picture.. even if they aren't following the book by the word..they still are doing all this wrong shit thats prohibited in islam and still claim its ok...
I think i'll stop right there for a coffee break *-) |
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| 03:29pm, 6th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
dr_AZ
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36661
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CHANGE = BIDA = wrong mmkay... |
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| 07:38pm, 7th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36686
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OoO, I lost track of this thread. :\
If a Hadith has been proven to be against the teachings of the Quran it is not listed as a Hadith.
That is incorrect. See the hadith about stoning. There is NO verse in the Quran that states that stoning is a punishment for anything.
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| 07:01pm, 9th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
dr_AZ
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36696
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but stoning are much more fun it brings the whole family together |
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| 11:33pm, 13th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
manchester_paki
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36702
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Islam cant be altered neither ccan the Quran but the way people think can
Another thing is the interpretations people make of the Quran should be changed to as people use it for their own use eg, Terrorists |
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| 11:01am, 23rd Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36707
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don't people think following religious doctines/scriptures which are 100's, if not 1000's of years old in 2008 a bit ludicrous anyway? |
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| 11:04am, 23rd Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36708
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"As muslims we consider Islam a complete way of life. We consider the content of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) as correct."
so then why not go live in a cave, move to arabia, throw away your mobile, bathe in a river etc etc...or do you just pick and choose? |
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| 01:49pm, 23rd Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
k4sh
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36710
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Islam cant be altered neither ccan the Quran but the way people think can
Another thing is the interpretations people make of the Quran should be changed to as people use it for their own use eg, Terrorists
You're correct but this has already happened. What of the cults that exist today which have corrupted and changed the original and true message? eg - quadanis, shias etc. |
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| 03:26pm, 23rd Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36717
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if anybody needs a guide on how to live their life, heed my advice:
WORK, SHARE, RELAX, EAT, DRINK & CHILL
there you go... |
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| 05:51pm, 23rd Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
DR_AZ
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36719
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u forgot $hit |
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| 07:38pm, 23rd Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36720
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so then why not go live in a cave, move to arabia, throw away your mobile, bathe in a river etc etc...or do you just pick and choose?
Now, now Candice (=P), you are learned enough to know that the Quran nor the Bible calls for such behaviour. There's general guidelines on how to live your life - very few things have specific instructions.
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| 08:56am, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36722
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"Now, now Candice (=P), you are learned enough to know that the Quran nor the Bible calls for such behaviour. There's general guidelines on how to live your life - very few things have specific instructions."
you are referring to texts which are 1000's of years old, surely you are learned enough to snap into 2008 and use your brain, why are you restricting yourself to scriptures and further dividing mankind?
no offence, but men then were not educated in comparison to men now. |
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| 09:25am, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36723
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depends on what you call 'educated'?
Secondly, under what grounds have you come to that conclusion that people living in 2008 are more intellectual or intelligent than people living in the past? Just because new knowledge is being formed it doesn't mean that the exisiting knowledge becomes obsolete. If that was the case, none of us would learn from history and we'd continue to make the same mistakes. |
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| 09:49am, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36724
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advancement is what I meant, would you still rather look back to 1400 years ago or live in what you have now?
i have no quarrels over what people believe in, you could worship a tree for all i care, providing you don't push your beliefs on to me or others. chrisitians & muslims have had a history of violence, conquering other countries and forcing their religion on others.
the bottom line is both of these major religions think they are the better than all(chrisitianity isn't that extreme now in comparison to history), this ideology has spun off to smaller religions who look up to this extremism and now many religions are just becoming armies fighting in a school playground over 'who is the best'. so i ask, where is the spirituality in all this fighting?
in many cases certain religious sects may feel they have to fight back in an extremist way against extremism, like the hindus who are persecuted in bangladesh, so where will it end?
all in all- do you believe the biggest division of mankind on this earth is religion? YES or NO? |
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| 04:30pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Sid20VT
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36732
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Not my quote, but one from an atheist:
"having faith is the "natural" state of man. Looking at history, I find not a single instance of a large community of atheists. The grand experiment in extermination of religion in the Soviet Union and its replacement with a secular version failed miserably and not for lack of trying. It is as if man has an innate predisposition to believe in something higher than himself. Atheism is profoundly lonely, dark, and hopeless."
It doesnt matter in which age you live. The questions mankind has cannot all be answered so there is a belief in a higher being. That remains constant be it now or 2000 yrs ago.
And the biggest division of mankind is not religion, its race. |
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| 04:34pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Inders
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36733
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"The questions mankind has cannot all be answered "
We can answer more of them then we could yesterday. We'll be able to answer even more tommorrow.
This is progress and it is acting against religion not with it. |
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| 04:54pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36734
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Sid20VT, i have already said i couldnt care less what religion you are and meaningless i personally feel it is, but don't expect me to accept it or accept its ideology.
and no matter how lonely and dark you find atheists, they cannot be more deluded than some religous followers.... |
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| 05:05pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Sid20VT
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36735
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Inders, progress creates as many questions as it answers.
I'm far from the most religious person in the world but even I can see a place for it in the world.
Militant, it wasnt my quote and neither am I asking you to accept any ideology. Was merely stating the need people have for religion.
There will always be deluded people. No matter how much progress is made or what advancements are made. Dickheads will be a constant feature and what defines a dickhead will vary from person to person. |
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| 05:09pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
on_the_jazz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36736
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Inders why would you say progress is acting against religion? |
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| 05:33pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36737
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you are referring to texts which are 1000's of years old, surely you are learned enough to snap into 2008 and use your brain, why are you restricting yourself to scriptures and further dividing mankind?
Its only restricting if your personal morals/values are disrupted by your religious following. For me - they correlate with my religious belief - so its not restricting.
providing you don't push your beliefs on to me or others.
That doesn't really happen these days. You are not persecuted for what you choose to believe in. In the rare instances that this is known - a worldwide effort is made to stop it.
who look up to this extremism and now many religions are just becoming armies fighting in a school playground over 'who is the best'. so i ask, where is the spirituality in all this fighting?
Isn't it ignorant for you to judge an entire culture/religion/race based on the actions of those who scream the loudest? I suggest you make some Christian/Jewish/Muslim mates so you have a different point of view. You're diluted by what you see, rather than what you know.
This is progress and it is acting against religion not with it.
Not necessarily. Religion promotes actively seeking knowledge - expanding skills etc. etc. It's written in the books for all to read. If it was a threat, dontcha think God would've expunged those verses so man doesn't get ahead of themselves?
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| 05:40pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36738
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Oh and one more thing - the Buddhists also believe in something - but they're essentially a non-violent people. Do you believe their religion should be eliminated as well then? Just curious. |
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| 09:45pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36740
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“Now, now Candice (=P), you are learned enough to know that the Quran nor the Bible calls for such behaviour. There's general guidelines on how to live your life - very few things have specific instructions.” – Ms_Xtreme
Huh?
I am not a militant, nor an atheist, as I have told you numerous times.
I would never be so heartless as to tell you to go and live in a cave.
Where would you plug in your epilator?
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| 09:52pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36741
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"That doesn't really happen these days. You are not persecuted for what you choose to believe in. In the rare instances that this is known - a worldwide effort is made to stop it."
tell that to those who are being persecuted daily in indonesia/malaysia or wherever it is (i'll look it up later) where those who convert away from islam are persecuted.
"Isn't it ignorant for you to judge an entire culture/religion/race based on the actions of those who scream the loudest?"
when its screamed in the name of a faith - any faith - not so ignorant. everyones permitted their individual opinion, ask anyone of any religion on the street, but it doesn't change the fact that these things happen anyway. it sounds like the 'ol "well islam doesn't permit terrorism so that al quaeda lot aint muslims, innit" story. |
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| 10:01pm, 24th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36743
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“all in all- do you believe the biggest division of mankind on this earth is religion? YES or NO?”
No, not the biggest.
“grand experiment in extermination of religion in the Soviet Union and its replacement with a secular version failed miserably and not for lack of trying.”
Sovietism was a grand experiment to exterminate religion?? That’s new to me.
“The questions mankind has cannot all be answered so there is a belief in a higher being. That remains constant be it now or 2000 yrs ago.”
Erm, the god of gaps is getting smaller as every year passes.
“No matter how much progress is made or what advancements are made. Dickheads will be a constant feature and what defines a dickhead will vary from person to person.”
Are these the same “dickheads” who cannot understand or want to understand the answers that mankind asks?
“they correlate with my religious belief - so its not restricting.”
Of course they dont, since you have been taught those very same personal morals/values from an early age.
“You are not persecuted for what you choose to believe in. In the rare instances that this is known - a worldwide effort is made to stop it.”
Of course people are. They are laughed at, ridiculed, deprived, ostracized, and physically persecuted.
“Religion promotes actively seeking knowledge - expanding skills etc. etc.”
It promotes depending on which direction the knowledge is being seeked. Certain things are not up for investigation, and if they are, then the answers that the seeker MUST reach MUST be in line with what the religion has already said is to be the gospel truth (pun intended).
“the Buddhists also believe in something”
Buddhists do not believe in god, or life after death (apart from reincarnation).
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| 08:32am, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36745
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"That doesn't really happen these days. You are not persecuted for what you choose to believe in. In the rare instances that this is known - a worldwide effort is made to stop it."
i second reelist, go and tell that to the people who are persecuted in malaylsia, bangladesh, and other islamic states. EVEN NOW IN THE MIDDLE EAST there is no religious freedom, could someone happily convert to christianity or judaism, or even be an atheist? these orders don't just come from radical muslims, but from the authorities. lets not go into the treatment of women in these countries....YET!
and in regards to buddism, i have already said, i have no problem with religion in general no matter how meaningless i personaly feel certain elemants are, but when some elemants are harmful, that is where i think it is just to intervene. |
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| 08:37am, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36746
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"That doesn't really happen these days. You are not persecuted for what you choose to believe in. In the rare instances that this is known - a worldwide effort is made to stop it."
i can't believe you've actually said this. even if it was correct, are people supposed to get the 1000's 100,000's, upon millions of people persecuted because they refused to convert to islam or the people who were forced to convert to christianity?
"/01/2008
By: Alexander weissink
Former Muslim Mohammed Higazi is lucky that he was not present in an Egyptian courtroom on Tuesday. An Islamic fundamentalist lawyer made death threats against the Egyptian for converting to Christianity. To the dismay of Higazi's lawyer the judge made no objection.
What made matters even worse, the judge went so far as to express his loathing off the accused because he had converted. There was no verdict but the judge vowed that he would never let Mr Higazy be registered as a Christian. He defended his decision by saying that Islam is the principal religion in Egypt. No mention was made of the freedom of religion established in the constitution which is a fundamental right of all citizens."
"Muslims are converting to Christianity in their thousands in France but face exclusion from their families and even death threats.
Many Muslims in France hide their conversion but the trend is continuing. World wide around six million Muslims a year convert to Christianity."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/015160.php
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| 09:52am, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36747
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"Isn't it ignorant for you to judge an entire culture/religion/race based on the actions of those who scream the loudest? I suggest you make some Christian/Jewish/Muslim mates so you have a different point of view. You're diluted by what you see, rather than what you know."
people who scream the loudest would techincally be the representatives of that religion...enough of the political correctness. i have muslim/jewish/christian/hindu/sikh/jain friends, and they know my stance of religion- only muslims & jehovah's witnesses have tried to sell their religion to me.
but i don't sterotype on this, i won't go and say all muslims are bad. |
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| 12:09pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36764
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christianity is reformed, why cant islam?
starting point- allow only 1 WIFE to men. |
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| 12:34pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36768
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^why? |
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| 12:43pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36770
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why?
because 1 man should have 1 wife and vice versa. then men should learn to control their lust instead of asking their women to cover themselves too |
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| 12:55pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36772
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is it OK to have numerous non marital partners then? |
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| 06:50pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36778
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I am not a militant, nor an atheist, as I have told you numerous times.
lol, I was just drawing you out - was missing our lil debates.
Toots: (i'll look it up later)
Please do. My knowledge doesn't expand to those distances.
when its screamed in the name of a faith - any faith - not so ignorant.
What does that even mean? Isn't it MORE reason to research a religion when something really bad happens to see what its really about rather than posting on barfi telling people they should alter Islam?
Candice - Of course they dont, since you have been taught those very same personal morals/values from an early age.
That may be true for when one is a child. But sooner or later you have to make a choice of whether that religion/belief works for you or not. So I don't understand your theory here.
It promotes depending on which direction the knowledge is being seeked. Certain things are not up for investigation, and if they are, then the answers that the seeker MUST reach MUST be in line with what the religion has already said is to be the gospel truth (pun intended).
what? The book isn't specific in that sense. So neither you or I can debate this one. You, once again and knowing better, are quoting what MAN has implemented and preached over the years. That doesn't count.
people who scream the loudest would techincally be the representatives of that religion
Thats just stupid. I can't believe you just said that. lol. |
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| 07:52pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36779
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msex:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/6150340.stm
and lest we forget that fella in the middle east who was almost sentenced to death when he converted to christianity.
the people who should the loudest are the abu hamzas of our world. they might not be representatives of what you may believe m'sex, but in the eyes of the general public, who see these mad mullah types in the news all the time, they are.
"That may be true for when one is a child. But sooner or later you have to make a choice of whether that religion/belief works for you or not. So I don't understand your theory here."
How can you know without sampling what else there is out there? |
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| 08:23pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36780
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who see these mad mullah types in the news all the time, they are.
So because people are too lazy to do some research before they chat shit is supposed to be my problem?
And how do you know they don't sample whats out there?
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| 08:35pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36781
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"So because people are too lazy to do some research before they chat shit is supposed to be my problem?"
no, but sitting there denying that they influence public opinion on said religion is a bit naive, is it not?
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| 08:38pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36782
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I didn't deny that you weetard. I'm saying its stupid to go by what the media tells you and form a judgment about a people who are a sixth of the world's population.
Wake up toots, ur getting groggy. |
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| 08:43pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36783
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so then how would you do it? do you honestly expect him, or anyone else, to speak to each and every muslim to get their opinions? everyone has their own interpretation of religion, hence there being various sects and denominations.
people generalize. its life. |
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| 08:55pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36786
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Then state that the shit they're chatting is a generalization.
We have enough trolls on barfi, and in America (lol see what I did there) who would think a person on the tele is someone who knows what they're talking about.
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| 09:12pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36787
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its a generalization.
but what makes your version of islam right over those of the tele-folk? |
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| 09:13pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36788
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I've spent years studying it. |
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| 09:58pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36789
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as they have also claimed... |
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| 11:42pm, 25th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36791
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8i9u-EltOVs&feature=related
lessons to be learned ;) |
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| 07:16am, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
dr_AZ
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36792
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YOUTUBE IS A BIDDAH
BIDDAH I SAY!!!!! |
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| 09:00am, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36795
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"is it OK to have numerous non marital partners then?"
for me, it is wrong. but a non marital status is not a marital status, if you understand the simplicity there...
marriage is a bond for two people, and committment, not to have nazma on monday, begum on tuesday, alishah on wednesday etc..
so go ahead, justfiy monogamy.. |
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| 09:31am, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
dr_AZ
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36798
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what do you do if its that time of the month n you still need sum hot luvin |
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| 09:34am, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
militant_atheist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36799
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use some vaseline |
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| 09:40am, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
dr_AZ
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36801
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n whos gonna clean up da mess afterwards! |
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| 06:38pm, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36814
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“lol, I was just drawing you out - was missing our lil debates.” – Ms-X
You could have just honestly said it was a case of mistaken identity….
“That may be true for when one is a child. But sooner or later you have to make a choice of whether that religion/belief works for you or not. So I don't understand your theory here.”
Very few people completely change their morals/values from what they have been taught from an early age. Small changes, yes, big changes, no. So the majority when grownup still have the same morals/values as they were taught by their parents/family/religion/culture. There may have a rebellious phase in their lives when they do the opposite, but that’s another issue altogether, and they will return back to what they were taught and feel that their morals/values correlate with their religious beliefs. They feel comfortable in what they know. If you really feel your morals/values etc correlate with your religious beliefs, then you would be following your religion more closely.
“what? The book isn't specific in that sense. So neither you or I can debate this one. You, once again and knowing better, are quoting what MAN has implemented and preached over the years. That doesn't count.”
I didnt quote anything. :S
It is a known fact that most religionist ideologies cannot be questioned, esp. by the followers. If they are, then the seeker must thread carefully and must come up with answers to his questions that correlates with the religion’s point of view/beliefs. If a person questions a religion, its “holy books” of god/prophets, and finds faults, then he is likely to be punished by its followers. You know this already.
It has been man, not god or gods who have written “holy books”. Hence the numerous mistakes and vagueness that can be found in them.
The book isn’t specific enough??? Huh? I have given you specific examples before which raises questions in the other thread which went off in a tangent. eg – lifting the mythical story of Salih, son of Kanuh - sperm/semen coming from between the back bone and ribs,– lifting Aristotle’s theory (history of animals) - development of a feotus, bones are made first and then the flesh, which “wraps” around the already formed bones, Mary being part of the christian trinity, the varying duration for the creation of the earth etc. Query these and other “facts” from holy books, be it from the koran, bible, torah, gita et al, and if your lucky, you will be excommunicated; if unlucky, executed.
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| 09:06pm, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
on_the_jazz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36816
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-----Very few people completely change their morals/values from what they have been taught from an early age. Small changes, yes, big changes, no.-----
There are millions of coverts yearly for each of the major religions.
-----It has been man, not god or gods who have written “holy books”. Hence the numerous mistakes and vagueness that can be found in them.-----
I suppose this is where faith comes in. I'm assuming you've read all the holy books to make a sweeping statement like that. Some people find mistakes, others find them perfect.
Pointing out the numerous mistakes you've seen is for another thread but you might also like to consider how there can be numerous truths in them when they are so old and written by a so called backward civilization. One or two statements you can put down to luck and lifting from other texts, but consistency and lack of mistakes is harder to explain.
-----Salih, son of Kanuh - sperm/semen coming from between the back bone and ribs,– lifting Aristotle’s theory (history of animals) - development of a feotus, bones are made first and then the flesh, which “wraps” around the already formed bones, Mary being part of the christian trinity, the varying duration for the creation of the earth etc-----
I cannot see the mistakes in any of this stuff.
The sperm/semen thing is an old argument and its always misquoted. The issue is that we are not fluent in Arabic rather than there being any huge mistakes. The explanation is kinda long to type but in essence the verse does not say between the backbone and ribs, the correct translation (as far as I know - and I could be wrong since my Arabic is pretty awful) would be loins and pelvic bone, the former is for the male and latter for the female.
Fetus quote - The verse you mean is "We fashioned the thing which clings into a chewed lump of flesh and We fashioned the chewed flesh into bones and We clothed the bones with intact flesh". That sounds quite accurate to me. I'm sure a google will prove that to you.
I don't mean to get into an argument but I find it annoying when people either do not read the original text or do not read the tafsir translation, because unless you are a scholar you are going to have real trouble picking out context and relating events/things.
The bottom line is faith. You could easily argue back that my interpretation of Arabic is wrong, and that I am bending the translation to fit. It would be a valid argument, but when I've seen 500 odd pages of things which should not be in these books (I am speaking mainly for the Quran, and some stuff in the Bible) and the most people (including myself) can question is a handful of verses I'm willing to give the possibility of a fitted translation the benefit of the doubt (at least until my Arabic improves).
Oops, sorry I just noticed this is waaay off topic. Ah well, I'm new :p |
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| 10:15pm, 26th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36819
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"for me, it is wrong. but a non marital status is not a marital status, if you understand the simplicity there..."
That's stating the obvious, some people don't get married but stay together, some people choose to have numerous partners and not get married, some people are married and have a mistress. So these would be just 'wrong' for you but polygamy (which is consentual on all sides) is something you are militant about changing?
'so go ahead, justfiy monogamy..'
I'm currently in a monogomous relationship, justification is there.
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| 01:21am, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
think_tank
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36824
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This is so sensless.
How do you know that the Quran has not changed over the years?
Infact, the Quran has been written many times and revised by many scholars during the 7th - 9th century. Remember it is written by people so different people will have differing interpretations of it.
What should be celebrated though is the message that it carries for the good of the people. We are forever in this radical justification that these are the words of God. An invisible omnipresent being to whom not to obey is sacrilege - daft in my opinion.
The greatest epics ever written like the, Quran, The Bible, Mahabharta, Ramayana are to give us inspiration of the greatness the characters possessed, the desciplines, code of practice, principles and behaviour set out for the betterment of ones actions &, relationship with nature and everyone else.
But, here we go round and round in circles justifying all wrong doings in the name religion and competing and conflicting with ideologies that far from understanding them fully endorse them militantly. |
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| 12:39pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36826
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“There are millions of coverts yearly for each of the major religions.”-jazz
We (MsX & I) were talking morals/values. The three abrahamic religions’ morals/values are the same. All religions basically follow the common adage of “do not kill, do not steal, respect your parents etc”. They all have a variation of the golden rule. If you follow any of the world’s major religions, you will find a basic commonality running through them. Morals and values are the same.
“I'm assuming you've read all the holy books to make a sweeping statement like that.”-jazz
Yes I have.
“Pointing out the numerous mistakes you've seen is for another thread but you might also like to consider how there can be numerous truths in them when they are so old and written by a so called backward civilization. One or two statements you can put down to luck and lifting from other texts, but consistency and lack of mistakes is harder to explain.”-jazz
I actually mentioned another thread, I was just reminding MsX (it was months ago, and she’s a bit ditzy). Numerous mistakes? You just have to find ONE mistake to realise that it cannot be from god. Just like finding one mistake in the Christian gospels/acts or Jewish torah to realise that it too has been “corrupted”.
Numerous truths? Erm, even children’s fairy tales and Jeffery Archer novels have numerous truths in them. Doesn’t mean they are divinely written or that everything else in it is the truth and that we just don’t realise it.
Who said anything about a “backward civilization”??
“Some people find mistakes, others find them perfect.”-jazz
That’s subjective. I can play the piano to grade 5 level. Some non musicians hearing me play a piece of music will think it was perfect. Musicians hearing it can pick out the mistakes. Non-biased doctors/scientists can find numerous medical/scientific mistakes in holy books; astrologers (“shooting stars” are missiles to attack jinns”) can find numerous mistakes in holy books etc.
“I cannot see the mistakes in any of this stuff.”-jazz
Ok…..@ the old chestnut of misquotes and bad translations….
I think in your haste to post, your didn’t understand the point I was making in my post, and therefore gone off on a tangent. MsX said that “Religion promotes actively seeking knowledge - expanding skills etc. etc.” I was pointing out that yes religions do promote seeking knowledge, but there are restrictions, i.e. you shouldn’t question what the religion/godhead/prophets have said, but if you do, then the answers that your end up with must correlate with that what the religion/godhead/prophets have already said. I gave examples of some inconsistencies that can be found in the quran. If MsX was a Jew or a Christian, I would have given examples from the torah or gospels/acts. The old chestnut of misquotes and bad translations are used by every religion when people question them.
Surely they all cant be right. Throughout history, anyone who has questioned religionist teaching/holy books have been if lucky, excommunicated, if unlucky, executed. Shortly after Stephen Hawking published his book “A brief history”, he got an audience with the pope. The pope said to him that his search for knowledge is commendable, but he should not try to find out what happened prior to the big bang. Obviously, the pope & the church were somehow able to tie-in Hawking’s book with what the church is now saying is “gospel truth” regarding the cosmos. In the past, popes would have excommunicated him, burnt him at the stake as a heretic or confined him to house arrest as they did with Galileo.
To reiterate, the point I was making can be summed up in the following quote by Morley –
“Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat.”
“The bottom line is faith. You could easily argue back that my interpretation of Arabic is wrong, and that I am bending the translation to fit. It would be a valid argument, but when I've seen 500 odd pages of things which should not be in these books (I am speaking mainly for the Quran, and some stuff in the Bible) and the most people (including myself) can question is a handful of verses I'm willing to give the possibility of a fitted translation the benefit of the doubt (at least until my Arabic improves).” - jazz
Your being subjective again. If it comes from god then you shouldn’t be able to question even one verse, let alone a handful. You can claim that because your Arabic is of a lower standard, that everyone else’s is as well. But what about the people who can speak Arabic? What is your excuse for them, when they find mistakes or queries in the quran? Your retort will probably be – “Arabic speakers don’t because they cant find any and if they did, why don’t they leave the religion”. More like they don’t because they fear what will happen to them – death as an apostate (much like in Christendom a couple of hundred years ago). I assume you cant speak/read Hebrew either, therefore, shouldn’t you (according to your logic) be willing to accept that the Torah is without mistakes? And because you may not speak/read Greek, Latin, Aramaic, the Gospels/Acts may not be corrupt after all. Hey, lets not forget Sanskrit – maybe the Gita, Ramayana etc are divine truths as well. Shit, what about other ancient religions – the Greeks (Zeus, Hera, etc), the Romans (Jupiter, Juno, etc), and Egyptians (Ra, Isis, Horus etc).
Lastly, a simple but very apt cartoon - http://www.jesusandmo.net/
Good post think-tank.
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| 12:41pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36827
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'How do you know that the Quran has not changed over the years?
Every Quran I've read hasn't been changed, so far so good hey.
'Infact, the Quran has been written many times and revised by many scholars during the 7th - 9th century. Remember it is written by people so different people will have differing interpretations of it.'
Can you tell me those facts? There's a difference in re-printing something and re-writing something think tank. The point I'm making is that there has always been a cross reference and it has always been revealed in the one language so misinterpretation of writing the text is something very hard to do.
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| 12:45pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36828
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I do concur with the rest of your posts think_tank
and Candide man....knock it off with them essays! 
(February mate, oh yeah!) |
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| 12:51pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36829
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"Can you tell me those facts?" - basic
look up Samarkard quran, Topkapi quran, uthmanic quran, kufic or al-Khatt al-Kufi script, Masq script, to name a few...
lmao@essays
I know!, effing ridiculous having to basically rewrite the same shit over and over and simpler again and again.
Happy new year matey.
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| 01:57pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36830
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Candide aren't those a type of script? In comparison to me using Times New Roman, Arial, Comic Sans.
The message is still the same. I'm aware that there is different styles of script, but not whereby one Quran varies in it's literal message to another.
Happy New Year mate. February! February! LOST! LOST! |
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| 03:40pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
on_the_jazz
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36831
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---This is so sensless.
How do you know that the Quran has not changed over the years?---
There are some Qurans in existance from just after the time of the prophet (pbuh). There is only one version of the Quran. A good percentage of muslims know it off by heart, and have done since the time of the prophet (pbuh). If someone was to try and change it after the prophet (pbuh)'s death, it would have been impossible. Too many people knew it by heart and if that person tried to spread the false version... well I wouldn't like to be in his shoes.
---We (MsX & I) were talking morals/values. The three abrahamic religions’ morals/values are the same. All religions basically follow the common adage of “do not kill, do not steal, respect your parents etc”. They all have a variation of the golden rule. If you follow any of the world’s major religions, you will find a basic commonality running through them. Morals and values are the same.---
Agreed, but I'm saying that people outside these morals have converted to them. Whether its an extreme case of the druggy, the hardened criminal, or the swinger; or the simple case of a laid back drinking, smoking, scientific person. These people have changed their way of life to convert to the religion. This is a significant change from what they have been brought up with and how they have lived their life.
---You just have to find ONE mistake to realise that it cannot be from god---
Once again I agree, I'm just saying I am yet to find that mistake.
---That’s subjective. I can play the piano to grade 5 level. Some non musicians hearing me play a piece of music will think it was perfect. Musicians hearing it can pick out the mistakes. Non-biased doctors/scientists can find numerous medical/scientific mistakes in holy books; astrologers (“shooting stars” are missiles to attack jinns”) can find numerous mistakes in holy books etc.---
I don't really want to type another huge reply but lets agree to disagree. There are people far more intelligent than either of us (this includes scientists, doctors, and astronomers (I take it thats what you meant since astrology itself is a belief - btw once again you twist and take out of context the jinn thing, I think you should just join the answeringislam forum and be done with it :p) who have chosen to be religious and chosen not be religious.
---think in your haste to post, your didn’t understand the point I was making in my post, and therefore gone off on a tangent. MsX said that “Religion promotes actively seeking knowledge - expanding skills etc. etc.” I was pointing out that yes religions do promote seeking knowledge, but there are restrictions...---
I understood, but I had to highlight the misquotes.
Also, I disagree since I often question things in my religion and am yet to be shouted at or killed.
To tell people not to confirm/disprove things in Islam would be like saying "lets put a hold on science and concentrate on needlework". There are so many things which relate to the earth, the universe in general, humans, animals, plants, etc. that even an illiterate guy in a few thousand years back would have known that one day people are going to confirm/disprove some of these facts. Unless muslims were ordered to walk around with their eyes closed there is little chance that discoveries about these subjects would not be made. So why would seeking of knowledge and progression in science be actively encouraged? If he came up with all these things off the top of his head he would be shooting himself in the foot encouraging such things.
Yeah I explained how you can argue about translations etc. But unless you can speak the language or are a scholar of the language, your opinion is only based on hearsay.
---Your being subjective again. If it comes from god then you shouldn’t be able to question even one verse, let alone a handful. You can claim that because your Arabic is of a lower standard...---
Um no, humans question, thats just how they are. I know guys to who you would point at black and they would swear it was white. There are just people like that.
As for the last long bit. I mentioned some was faith but a lot of belief is based on evidence and logic. In my eyes the further we advance in science and knowledge the less faith is required to believe, as opposed to the other way around. That probably varies from person to person, but to think that I (or an entire population) would actively know something to be false but then change or mould it to be true is ridiculous. There is nothing for me to gain, and a lot to lose. |
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| 04:44pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36832
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“Candide aren't those a type of script? In comparison to me using Times New Roman, Arial, Comic Sans.”
lol, no, it’s a bit more complicated than that. Basically, from the usage of different types of script, you can determine around when and where it was written. Certain names/words/phrases used are not Arabic in origin e.g. the Arabic name for Jesus is Yesuwa which comes from the Jewish Yeshua (Issa is the Arabic name for Esau (ask any Christian Arab older than 40yrs old)). The word Injil (gospel) is not an Arab word, but a short form of the original Greek, hence contradicting the theory that the quran is written in some form of “pure” Arabic. Basically, the earliest quranic fragments which exist e.g. Samarkand, Topkapi etc do not date earlier than 150 years after the death of mohammad. Anyone who says there are qurans in existent before or just after mohammad's death is talking crap. The earliest copies of the quran that exist vary amongst each other and the one that is used today. A copy was found in Yemen in the 1970’s and is now considered the earliest, again this varies from others. I posted more of this, including names such as zaid, varies compilations and reasons why such as the battle of yamama on the other post. Can’t be arsed typing it out again. Anyway, look up via the how the quran was complied on the net or books from unbiased sources.
“The message is still the same. I'm aware that there is different styles of script, but not whereby one Quran varies in it's literal message to another.”
Varies people who knew the prophet and heard him recite have mentioned missing verses, eg aisha, uthman, ibn ka’b, umar. The message is probably the same, and they obviously acknowledged that.
“February! February! LOST! LOST!”
I KNOW! Cant effing wait, been getting dosed up for it by watch the daily repeats of the last series on sky.
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| 04:46pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36833
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^^
Fuckin’ hell @ grammar and spelling mistakes.
Too much red wine for lunch.
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| 04:51pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36834
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just a point on lost...
is there a full season or has it been affected by the writers strike too? :$
ok, continue bashing each other.. |
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| 04:55pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36835
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:O writers strike!
Shiote I forgot about that. Damn it, expect a gap half way thru.
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| 04:57pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Candide
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36836
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lol@bashing each other.
Nah. Ive stopped. Too arse-numbingly boring and soo last year.
I just had a relapse.
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| 05:00pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
reelist
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36837
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haha, doesn't seem like it from here.
im giving it a rest on current, going to concentrate my time on more productive things. like pulling the girls over on chilling.
let the good times roll.. |
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| 05:55pm, 27th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Basic
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36841
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reelist has ruined it all!  |
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| 01:29am, 28th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
think_tank
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36854
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Can you tell me those facts? There's a difference in re-printing something and re-writing something think tank. The point I'm making is that there has always been a cross reference and it has always been revealed in the one language so misinterpretation of writing the text is something very hard to do.
Basic: I wrote this cos, I have read upon some text about it and there was a documentary on Islam as well. I do not deny that the core message would not alter but like many religious text we have to believe that they were written either before the event or they are the words of God ie the Gita.... for instance.. Where it is believed that Krishna spoke to Arjun all said were his words at the battlefield. Vyas Devji worte the Mahabharata after the event, so from that can we assume that Vyas Devji has captured every word spoken by Krishna. It is a state of mind to believe that cos for some people it is very important to do so. However, the message contained in the Gita is so consuming that one is mesmerised in its recitation. That for me is main message. And I am sure that true of the Quran or any other holy scriptures.
Sanctifying our beliefs in the almighty has to be endorsed by something supernatural otherwise the psychological effect can be daunting. However, if one can rise above that, the message from these scriptures become more meaningful, powerful, and realistic.
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| 04:54pm, 28th Jan 2008 |
Are calls to alter Islam insulting? |
Ms_XtReMe
[Profile - Diary]
Msg no: 36855
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Jesus Christ! You people don't have jack to do on the weekends other than post here (hence making me fall behind - wayyyyyy behind) bastids. :\
You co | |
